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                  <text>Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur I'acces a I'information

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CONFIDENTIAL
CANADIAN EYES ONLY
REPORT OF MEETINGS OF CANADIAN-US-UK STEERING
COMMITTEE ON UNDERSEA WARFARE
Washington, D.C. - December 9 - 13, 1957

Appendices: A. Report of Sub-Committee (g) - U.S.-U.K.-Canada
Technical Committee
B.

Minutes of the First Meeting of the USW Steering
Committee

C. Minutes of the Second Meeting of the USW Steering
Committee
D.

Recommendations Arising from the Third Meeting

E. General Form of Terms of Reference of Systems
Sub-Committees
F.

Terms of Reference of Sub-Committee on Research

G. Memorandum for All Members of Sub-Committees
Reference:

(a) Memorandum CCOS to CNS, CAS, CGS, and CDRB
dated 29 November, 1957, with attachment, Washington
Message No. 2527, 27 November, 1957.

BACKGROUND
In Reference (a), the Chairman, Chiefs of Staff outlined proposals
for US-UK-Canadian cooperation in research and development in a
number of technical fields. Item (g) of this list of fields covered
undersea warfare. In the course of high level meetings in Washington at
which Canada was represented by the Chairman, Canadian Joint Staff
and the Defence Research Member, the sub-committee deputed to
consider undersea warfare met and submitted a brief report which is
attached as Appendix "A". The chief outcome of this report was the
establishment of a working group to commence a review of the research
and development programmes of the US, UK, and Canada. Information
was received in Ottawa 6 December, 1957, to the effect that this
Working Group would hold its first meeting 0900 9 December in the
Pentagon. This report is an outline of the discussions, agreements
and recommendations of this Working Group in Field (g).
FIRST MEETING OF THE WORKING GROUP
2.
This meeting was chaired by RADM C.E. Weakley, USN,
Director, Undersea Warfares Division and was attended by very senior
personnel from the US and UK. These included Mr. J„B. Macauley,
Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence (R and E), and RADM J.T.
Hayward, USN, Assistant Chief of Naval Operations (R and D) for the
US, VADM R.F. Elkins, BJSM, Dr. H.F. Willis, CRNSS, and CAPT
R.E. Portlock, RN-DUWM for the UK. ADM Elkins made an initial
policy statement which he had discussed with ADM Burke, Chief of
Naval Operations. This was to the effect that this Committee should

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i n d i c a t e the c o u n t r y w h i c h s h o u l d give p r i m e e m p h a s i s to a p r o j e c t b u t
s h o u l d not e s t a b l i s h fixed a r e a s of r e s p o n s i b i l i t y for r e s e a r c h a n d
d e v e l o p m e n t . No c o u n t r y s h o u l d b e e x c l u d e d f r o m w o r k i n g i n an a r e a of
e m p h a s i s of a n o t h e r c o u n t r y . ' M r . M a c a u l e y a f f i r m e d the a b o v e to b e
s u b s t a n t i a l l y the U n i t e d S t a t e s v i e w . T h e C a n a d i a n d e l e g a t i o n s u g g e s t e d
t h a t i t w o u l d not b e a t v a r i a n c e w i t h t h i s p o l i c y , h o w e v e r , if s p e c i f i c
p r o j e c t s o r s u b - p r o j e c t s w e r e n a m e d a s t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of a c e r t a i n
c o u n t r y . T h e m e e t i n g did not l i k e the w o r d r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a n d s u g g e s t e d
t h a t " e m p h a s i s on c e r t a i n p r o j e c t s " w a s a m o r e a c c e p t a b l e w o r d i n g .
(In l a t e r i n f o r m a l d i s c u s s i o n s , A D M E l k i n s u r g e d t h e C a n a d i a n d e l e g a t e s
to p a s s on h i s view to t h e i r r e s p e c t i v e C h i e f s of,.Staff a s he f e l t v e r y
s t r o n g l y a b o u t the i m p o r t a n c e of t h i s p o l i c y s t a t e m e n t . )
3„
T h e f i r s t s u b j e c t d i s c u s s e d w a s the i n t e r c h a n g e of i n f o r m a t i o n ,
p e r s o n n e l , a n d t e c h n i c a l e q u i p m e n t a n d the v a r i o u s d i f f i c u l t i e s w h i c h h a d
a r i s e n in t h e p a s t . It w a s a g r e e d t h a t a s u b - c o m m i t t e e to be n a m e d t h e
T e c h n i c a l I n f o r m a t i o n a n d P e r s o n n e l S u b - C o m m i t t e e , s h o u l d b e s e t up
i n the v e r y n e a r f u t u r e to d e t e r m i n e w h a t c o u l d b e done to i m p r o v e t h i s
i n t e r c h a n g e . It w a s l a t e r c o n f i r m e d t h a t t h e m e m b e r s h i p of t h i s
c o m m i t t e e would be C A P T K . M . G e n t r y for the USA, D r . R„V. A i r e d for
t h e UK and CDR J . M . L e e m i n g for C a n a d a . T h i s S u b - C o m m i t t e e w o u l d
b e only a n i n t e r i m one and w o u l d b e d i s s o l v e d w h e n i t h a d a c c o m p l i s h e d
its mission.

4.
Closely r e l a t e d to the exchange of information was the p r o b l e m
of i n d u s t r i a l information and patents covering t h i s . The Working Group
a g r e e d that this was a v e r y specialized field and that a second
s u b - c o m m i t t e e called the P a t e n t s Sub-Committee should be set up to study
the p r o b l e m . It was later established that the m e m b e r s h i p of the P a t e n t s
Sub-Committee would be CAPT Robilard for the US, D r . Todd for the UK
and M r . R„0. McGee for Canada.
5.
The Working Group a g r e e d that the next step in the proceedings
would be p r e s e n t a t i o n s by each of the three countrie s of a g e n e r a l review
of their r e s e a r c h and development p r o g r a m m e s . Mr. Benton Schaub
would act a s r e c o r d e r of the p r o c e e d i n g s of the Working Group, by
a g r e e m e n t to be called the Canadian-US-UK Steering Committee on
U n d e r s e a W a r f a r e . It was also a g r e e d that nuclear weapons and their
a s s o c i a t e d control s y s t e m s , as applied to u n d e r s e a w a r f a r e , would be
d i s c u s s e d . P r o g r a m m e coordination and data exchange on technical
details of nuclear w a r h e a d s would be handled by a different working
group and w e r e not the d i r e c t c o n c e r n of the USW Steering C o m m i t t e e .
6.
The official minutes of the f i r s t meeting a r e attached as
Appendix " B " .
SECOND MEETING OF THE WORKING GROUP
7.
The second meeting of the USW Steering Committee was held in
the afternoon, 11 D e c e m b e r in the Pentagon. P r e s e n t a t i o n s w e r e made
by the t h r e e countries covering the broad a s p e c t s of their u n d e r s e a
w a r f a r e r e s e a r c h and development p r o g r a m m e s . The UK p r e s e n t a t i o n
lasted an hour, the US forty minutes and the Canadian ten m i n u t e s .
Notes on these p r e s e n t a t i o n s were taken by the Canadian d e l e g a t es and
a fairly c o m p r e h e n s i v e r e p o r t is now being p r e p a r e d by the CJS",
Washington for t r a n s m i s s i o n to National Defence H e a d q u a r t e r s . As an

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illustration of the general tenor of the meeting, some very useful and
hitherto unavailable information on the operational characteristics of
nuclear USW weapons was outlined quite freely in the American
presentation.
8.
Following the presentation of programmes, the Steering Committee
discussed the problem of carrying out a closer study of these programmes
and determining how best to achieve integration of'the various
programmes so as to make optimum use of the combined technical
resources and manpower of the three countries. It was agreed that five
sub-committees, of a continuing nature, should be set up to cover the
following subjects.
Surface Systems
Airborne Systems
Submarine Systems
Mine Warfare and Torpedo Countermeasures Systems
Research
A working group was designated by the Steering Committee to establish
proposed Terms of Reference for the Sub-Committees. This working
group would meet the following day, 12 December. .
9.
The minutes of the second meeting of the USW Steering
Committee are attached as Appendix "C".

THIRD MEETING OF THE WORKING GROUP
10.
The USW Steering Committee held its final meeting in the
afternoon, 13 December. The main items discussed were the Terms of
Reference for the five technical sub-committees which had been
prepared the previous day by an ad hoc working group. Agreement was
reached on the terms of reference of the sub-committees and on the
designation of an "executive member" for each sub-committee. The
"executive member" would be, in effect, the coordinator and executive
secretary for his particular sub-committee, though sub-committee
meetings would be chaired by the member of the country in which the
meeting would be held. The allocation of "executive memberships"
was as follows:
Surface Systems - Canada
Airborne Systems - US
Submarine Systems - US
Mine Warfare and Torpedo Countermeasures Systems - UK
Research - UK
11.
There was a quite extensive discussion of how these subcommittees and also the USW Steering Committee would exchange

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-4information. It was a g r e e d that m e m b e r s of s u b - c o m m i t t e e s should be
authorized to communicate d i r e c t l y with each other and with m e m b e r s of
other USW s u b - c o m m i t t e e s ; a l s o that p r o b l e m s a r i s i n g in the s u b c o m m i t t e e s which r e q u i r e resolution should be forwarded to the
R e c o r d e r of the USW Steering C o m m i t t e e . The m e m b e r s h i p of
s u b - c o m m i t t e e s should n o r m a l l y be limited to one p r i n c i p a l m e m b e r
from each country; m e m b e r s h i p of the Steering Committee a m a x i m u m of
three.. The minutes of the third meeting have a s yet not been r e c e i v e d
but, for advance information of Canadian a u t h o r i t i e s , the following
a g r e e m e n t s a r e attached:
Appendix "D" - A g r e e m e n t s a r i s i n g from the Third Meeting
Appendix " E " - G e n e r a l F o r m of T e r m s of Reference of Systems
Sub-Committees
Appendix " F " - T e r m s of Reference of Sub-Committee on R e s e a r c h
Appendix "G" - Memorandum for All M e m b e r s of the
Sub-Committees
12.
The USW Steering Committee d i s c u s s e d briefly the n a t u r e of its
own T e r m s of Reference and concluded that these w e r e outlined in the
minutes of the f i r s t meeting and should be left to the R e c o r d e r to
f o r m u l a t e . It was a g r e e d that the t h r e e c o u n t r i es should be r e q u e s t e d to
name their r e s p e c t i v e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s on the v a r i o us Sub-Committee s
at the e a r l i e s t possible d a t e . This has a l r e a d y been done for the
Information and P a t e n t s S u b - C o m m i t t e e s and these groups a r e now
meeting in Washington. The n a m e s of the UK and Canadian m e m b e r s of
the USW Steering Committee were r e c o r d e d a s Captain R.E . P o r t l o c k ,
D r . H . F . Willis and one other and D r . F.H. Sanders , Captain P . F . X .
R u s s e l l and Group Captain R.A. Gordon r e s p e c t i v e l y ; US-nominations to
be made at a l a t e r d a t e .
13.
T h e S t e e r i n g C o m m i t t e e a g r e e d t h a t e a c h of t h e t e c h n i c a l
s u b - c o m m i t t e e s , w h e n f o r m e d , would b e r e q u e s t e d to c a r r y out a
p r e l i m i n a r y r e v i e w of i t s field of a c t i v i t y a n d s u b m i t a r e p o r t to t h e
S t e e r i n g C o m m i t t e e not l a t e r t h a n 1 A p r i l , 1958. A l t h o u g h it w a s a g r e e d
t h a t the S t e e r i n g C o m m i t t e e would p r o b a b l y m e e t e a r l y in the New Y e a r ,
the f i r m a g r e e m e n t w a s m a d e for a m e e t i n g a p p r o x i m a t e l y m i d - A p r i l
of 1958 for the p u r p o s e of d i s c u s s i n g the r e p o r t s of the s u b - c o m m i t t e e s
a n d f o r m u l a t i n g r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s for a c t i o n .

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APPENDIX "A"

REPORT OF SUBCOMMITTEE G
US-UK-CANADA TECHNICAL COMMITTEE DISCUSSIONS
. ANTISUBMARINE DEFENSE

The interchange of information between Canada, the United
States and the United Kingdom in Antisubmarine Defense has been
excellent throughout the years, and to some degree there has
been common use of resources on joint projects. It was agreed
that there was room for further progress, the sharing out of
responsibility for items in a joint program so as to make the
best over-all use of existing resources.
To implement the identification of potential areas of
planned cooperation, a task force has been established consisting
of competent and knowledgeable technical and operational personnel.
This group which starts work next week will jointly review
the Research and Development programs of all three countries and
make specific recommendations regarding the division of effort.

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APPENDIX "B"

OFFICE OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
WASHINGTON 25, D.C.
Research and Engineering

Minutes of the First Meeting
Canadian-US-UK Technical Steering Committee
on Undersea Warfare
December 9,.1957 at 1400
in Room 2B943 Pentagon
Washington, D.C.
Present
U.S.
Mr. J.B. Macauley - OASD (R&amp;E)
RAdm. J.T. Hayward, USN - CNO (0P-03C)
RAdm. C E . Weakley, USN - CNO (OP-31)
Capt. K.M. Gentry, USN - CNO
Mr. O.W. Helm, (ONR)
Mr. L.M. McKenzie (ONR)
Mr. Benton Schaub - OASD (R&amp;E)
LCdr. L.G. Cole, USN - OASD (R&amp;E)
U.K.
VAdm. R.F. Elkins, R.N.
Capt. R.E. Portlock, R.N. - Director of Underwater V/eapons
Material
Dr. H.F. Willis - CRNSS
Dr. Ronald V. Aired - BJSM
Cdr. A.G.W. Bellars, R.N., BJSM
CANADA
Group Capt. R.A. Gordon, RCAF
Capt. P.F.X. Russell, RCN (DUSW)
Dr. F.H. Sanders DRB-RCN
Admiral Elkins made an initial policy statement which he
had discussed with Admiral Burke. In brief he stated that this
committee should consider areas of emphasis which the individual
countries would have but should not establish fixed lines of
areas of cognizance responsibility. No country is to be excluded
from working in an area of emphasis of another country. An
initial objective of the committee should be the achieving of
a full and timely interchange of all technical and program
information and thinking.

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APPENDIX »B" (Cont'd)

Mr. Macauley affirmed the above to be substantially the
U.S. view and stated that the steering committee should basically
keep in mind that their objective is to improve the utilization
of the combined technical resources of the three countries by
developing cooperation and coordination in the assigned technical
area, Undersea Warfare.
It was established that Mr. Schaub OASD (R&amp;E) member would
act as recorder for the steering committee. The only requirement
for formal minutes of the steering committee meetings will be to
make any decisions a matter of record.
Although nuclear weapon systems will be covered in the
review of programs by this committee, program coordination of
and data exchange on technical details of nuclear warheads
and, propulsion will be handled by a separate group and is
therefore of no direct concern to this committee.
The most significant problem which currently exists
regarding the exchange of technical data is the result of applying
the need to know security concept. It will have to be established
that it is proper for the technical people of the three countries
to be cleared to each other's research and development activities
on a broad area basis, i.e., undersea warfare. When this is
achieved, it will be possible to exchange information on a broad
enough basis to cover thinking and planning regarding future
programs as well as the unpublished research results upon which
that thinking and planning is based.
The release of the confidential ASTIA Index to Canada and
the UK and the exchange of technical personnel were both discussed
as possible steps to aid in advancing towards the basic objective.
It was established that the question of patent rights was
very difficult. Much of the undersea warfare development work is
done in industry and therefore patent questions might easily arise
to disturb the desired information exchange.
Two subcommittees were established to review specific areas
and make recommendations to the steering committee. These were;
The Patent Subcommittee
Objectives;
To review the existing agreements and regulations regarding
the exchange of data between the countries involved and to recommend
what action, if any, should be taken to achieve the objectives of
the steering committee.
Membership:
'Capt. Robilard (US)
Dr. Todd (UK)
Dr. Orville McGee (Canadian)

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- 3 APPENDIX "B" ( C o n t ' d

The Technical Information and Personnel Subcommittee
Objectives %

To review the security systems of the three countries and
to recommend operating procedures and/or changes which will
permit full implementation of the objectives of the steering
committee.
To develop a recommended realistic program which will
achieve effective technical personnel cooperation among the
countries.
To determine the action necessary to achieve the release
of the-confidential ASTIA Index to Canada and the UK.
To establish a recommended procedure whereby equipment
may be exchanged as found desirable.
To investigate all other technical data exchange
impediments which they foresee as standing in the way of
achieving the objectives of the steering committee.
Membership;
Capt, Gentry (US)
Dr„ Aired (UK)
Cdr. J.M. Leeming (Canadian)
Admiral Hayward pointed out that the program coordination
sought by this committee would only be achieved if the efforts
were carried out on a continuing basis. Therefore, this
committee will be called the Joint Canadian-US-UK Undersea
Warfare Steering Committee and will consider its work as
continuing indefinitely. Meetings should be held at regular
intervals and at the request of any country.
•y
It was agreed that the next step should be a general review
of'the research and development programs of the three countries
..as a preparation for the task of dividing the detailed joint
program review into technical areas for consideration by
subcommittees.
The next meeting will be held for this purpose on Wednesday,
December 11, 1957 at 1330 in the Pentagon, Room 4E869.

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APPENDIX "C"

Minutes of the Second Meeting
Canadian-US-UK Technical Steering Committee
on Undersea Warfare
December 11, 1957 at 1330
in Room 4E 869 Pentagon
Washington, D.C.

Capt. P.F.X. Russell, DUSW
Dr. F.-Si Sanders, DRB
Group Capto R.A. Gordon VCAS/COPS/DTMRO
Air Commodore R.A. Cameron, RCAF
LCdr. P.C.Hi Cooke, CJS
Dr. H.H. Waterman, CJS

US
Mr. Benton Hall Schaub, OASD
Capto K.M. Gentry, OPNAV
Capto R. Holden, OPNAV
Mr. C W . Helm, ONR
Mr. L.M0 McKenzie, ONR
LCdr. L.G. Cole, OASD
Capt. Donald MacDonald, OPNAV
Dr. R.M. Page, NRL
Mr. James W„ Smith, ONR
Cdr. W.T. Holmes, OPNAV
Capt. C C . Cole, OPNAV
Cdr. L.R. Vasey, OPNAV
Mr. Jam^s E. C r p s s , Office ASTSECNAVAIR
UK
VAdm. R.F. Elkins, ABJSM
Capt. R.E. Portlock, DUWM
Dr. H.F. Willis, CRNSS
Commodore D.G. Goodwin, CDS to ABJSM
Dr. Ronald J. Aired, Sci. Adv. BJSM
Cdr. A.G.W. Bellars, BJSM
Cdr. A.M.B. Buxton, BJSM
Mr. Harry K. Bourne, BJSM
Presentations were made by the three countries covering
the broad aspects of their Undersea Warfare research and development
programs. A short discussion of the material presented was held
and then the subject of subcommittees was opened.
The Steering Committee agreed that the following five
standing technical review subcommittees should be established:
Surface Systems
Airborne Systems
Submarine System
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APPENDIX »C" (Cont'd)

Mine Warfare and Torpedo Countermeasure Systems
Research
A working group was designated by the Steering Committee
to establish proposed terms of reference for the subcommittees.
This working group was scheduled to meet in Room 3D1023 Pentagon
at 0930 On December 12, 1957.
The next meeting of the Steering Committee will be
held in Room 3CI38 Pentagon at 1400 on December 13, 1957.

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iiPPENDK »D'

POINTS OF AGREEMENT OF JOINT CANADA-US-UK
STEERING COMMITTEE ON UNDERSEA AELIAFAIEE 3?JJ MEETING, 1 3 DECEMBER, 1 9 5 7 .
(NON-OFFICIAL)

The USW Steering Committee, at its 3rd meeting, 13
December, 1957, came to the following agreements:
(1)

To adopt the terms of reference for the technical
sub-committees. (Attached herewith as Appendices
"E" and "F")

(2)

That each technical sub-committee shall have a
designated executive member who will be
responsible for calling the meetings and
recording and .forwarding the reports of findings
of the suE-corm.itEee to the Steering Committee.

(3)

That the chairman of each sub-committee meeting be
a sub-committee member from the country in v/hich
the meeting is being held.

(4)

That "executive members'1 for each sub-committee
be designated frora the suE-committee membership
by the country designated below:
Surface Systems
Airborne Systems
Submarine Systems
Mine "Warfare and Torpedo
Countermeasures Easterns
Research

- Canada.
- US
- US
- UK
- UK

(5)

That members of sub-committees be authorized
to communicate directly with each other and
vdth other USW sub-committees.

(6)

That membership of countries on sub-committees
normally be limited to one principal member
with the minimum practicable number of
associates.

(7)

That problems arising in the sub-committees
which require outside resolution be forwarded
to Mr. Benton Hall Schaub, Room 3D1023,
Pentagon, Washington, DC, for resolution by
designated representatives of all three
countries who are located in the E.'ashington
area or by referral to the Steering Committee
when found necessary.

(o)

The original proposal was that ,;A nev; ISP
be established for use by membership of the
Steering Committee and the technical subcommittees. The scope of this IE! to be
Undersea Warfare." This point was discussed
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APPENDIX "D»

in some detail and It was left to the United
States representatives to find a means for
appropriate exchange of information. This
may not be an IEI .
(9)

That any country expecting to effect a
significant change of emphasis in an
Undersea Warfare programme be required
to notify the Steering Committee of that
change.

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APPENDIX "E»

Joint CM-US-UK Steering Committee on Undersea Warfare
I • ••..' HI Wil II •

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Systems Subcommittee
The area of responsibility of this subcommittee will
be all

The subcommittee will be responsible for the
following:
To maintain continuing review of the projects
under development in all three countries and to make
recomiriendations to the Steering Committee for integrating
the various programs, so as to make the best use of the
combined technical resources and manpower of the three
countries.
To advise the Steering Committee v/here
unnecessary duplications appear to exist, and also fields
which are insufficiently covered.
To make recommendations to the Steering
Committee concerning the subsequent development and
production of equipment, as directed by the Steering
Committee, when any research item approaches the development
stage and when any development item approaches the production
stage.

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APPENDIX "F"

Joint CAN-US-UK Steering Committee on Undersea Warfare
Research Subcommittee

The area of responsibility of this subcommittee will be
all basic research and applied research in the area of undersea
warfare.

This is understood to include techniques which are

not included in the development of equipments for service use.
The subcommittee will be responsible for the following:
To maintain a continuing review of research in all three
countries and to point out to the Steering Committee the fields
which appear to be insufficiently covered or overemphasized.
• To take cognizance of new proposals for research, advise
the Steering Committee on their potential value and make
recommendations concerning subsequent work.
To report to the Steering Committee when any research
item reaches the stage when a development application can be
foreseen, giving an indication of its possibilities.

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AIAPENDIX "G"

MEMORANDUM FOR ALL MEMBEA^S OF SuBCOEN'ITTEES
SUBJECT:

Establishment of Subcomm.ittees

The Joint Canadian-US-UK Steering Committee on
Undersea VAarfare at its second meeting on December 11, 1957
decided to establish technical subcommittees to conduct a
detailed review of the selected areas of Undersea Y«rarfare.
The Terms of Reference and membership lists for these
subcommittees are enclosed.
Although these subcommittees are established on a
continuing basis for detailed review, the Steering Committee
desires to pinpoint at the earliest date the major areas
where progress may be made toward a better integration of
the combined programs. The subcommittees should make a
quick initial review of their assigned area and submit
recommendations to the Steering Committee prior to 1 April,
1958.
The executive member of each subcommittee will be
responsible for calling the meetings and preparing reports.
Meetings of the subcommittees will, be chaired by the senior
member of the host country.
Problems requiring action by the Steering Committee
and reports to the Steering Committee should be forwarded
through the Steering Committee recorder, Mr. Benton Schaub,
OASD (R&amp;E), Room 3D1023 Pentagon, Washington, 25, D. C.
Fifteen copies of all reports should be submitted.
Executive members are authorized to communicate
directly with each other regarding common problems.

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