https://declassified.library.utoronto.ca/files/original/b6f1870c79a9a7171fc57f81de3e5213.pdf 193fd14f085f19dfaf34efca4deede5e PDF Text Text Document disclosed under the Access to lnformotion Act Document divulgue en vertu de Jo Loi sur /'occes l'informotio a DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS, CANADA. NUMBERED LETTER TO: THEUNDER-SECRETARY OF STATEFOR EXTERNAL AFFAIRS, OTTAWA, CANADA. ,~ 7-A// .. A~- Securi ty: . Q O :m1 ms.NTUL. ............ . ~ c:'.b:, No:..................................... . MARCH29 1956. , . . f . ................ FROM;rtW ..Qff.=t:P.Ji: ..Q~. .~Wt.fl+9r.Ii ..Q9vµ~i~~~.~9J~ ..f.QR Date: .............. . Enclosures: .. , ...2 ,r', , ... , . , . , , , ..... ,.,. . ....... CA~ADA,. ... :ciP.IW.Q~l ......................... . Our letter No. 452 of March 12 , .. 1956. &ference: ........................................... ,.~ . ,, ~1:1~ .. ~.'?~~?'.:~~-~~.?r.. f.I.'~.~-,,,. ................ 9.C?\lR<?:i.:q.,<:?1:.1:!. ?~. ~~?:qf~~Y............ L' ...........................................................i·' .. Subject: .. -~~P.'?f.~.?.t:.. Air or Surface Mail: .. -4\.~ ... , .. , .. ,,., •, Post File No: .. .......... , , ... , , , , , , , . , •• Ottawa File No. References .J, I r Distribution to Posts The White Paper on security was discussed at some length in the House of Commons on march 21. Mr. Kenneth Younger, as spokesman for the Opposition, opened the debate with a thoughtful and comprehensive statement on the intent and possible repercussions of the reconnnendations set forth in the findings of the Conference of the Privy Councillors on security. While the necessity for effective security measures was agreed upon by the opposition, particular emphasis was gi van to the need for caution against over-zealous application of the procedures. Ivir. Younger noted that the Privy Councillors had not asked for any major changes in the present security system, which is regarded as basically sound, and expressed the hope that the recommendations intended to strengthen security were purely procedural. Doubts were expressed as to the wisdom of publishing any official docwnents on general security propositions which could be given different applicatioman.d interpretatiors. As pointed out, the White Paper was not a full report of the Conference and general statements out of their context may tend to be regarded as a kind of Charter of what may legitimately be done in the name of security. Nevertheless, Mr. Younger did not question any substantial aspect of the findings and it could be said that the main constructive contribution of his statement was to ensure that security measures will be confined to the requirements of na t1 onal sa.1·ety and will not degenerate into a witch-huntine or spy mania. A few dissentiug voices both from the 2. Conservative and Labour sides were heard expressing the views that, notwithstanding the \7hite Paper statement that security arrangements had been fundamentally sound, past events have shown that this was not the case. It was suggested by Colonel Cordeaux, who has served in Naval Intelligence and been decorated by several European governments for his intelligence work during the war, that a drastic overhaul of security arrangements is needed to ensure T ••• 2 000017 Ext. W2i\ <Hev. 2/52) �Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de lo Loi sur l'occes a /'information '3 .. ,.. �,. '· ,.· . . 'Bocum·e'!fd1}closeavnder-th'f::A,cces~ to/nformatiorrAf •. , : ,qo,::"urrjent_divulgue en.ver!u ci_e_/a_Loi 's,Hfacd;s a (infoirn'atio ._>._ "'.r''' '15·'· f·.' , . ··• :'\,·,,, .·'-4'('-· ·~:,, ,,., '. . ' ., .. \ .... ,, ··◄ .,. ''" '. ;,,r,...,.,. -~·~ ·-:-t'I ' ~ ' ' • J ' ., . ., ", :. ' . ·. ' .. .r: ',. • ~' ... '.t .. ' < h~ j<. .: ... . ' '.' ·- ·2 -·' ' -, • _,,,,' '";, ':· •.; < • ; : •'.,. • .. • -._,. • •, 0 '. :,:~ '·. > - ·' . ,, ,- ·, ' ,:,•w " ,·•' •, . ., ,,· • '> '•1':<;c,;,'. 'i4.--· ' •,· :' - ••• j • • • ·•: ·', > < L >- • • ,, ', ' \.\ _,,(.-i,' •,•• ;.,_. ', : : , '' '•• ., .,c '. :· "' •, •~ ' • I : ' .:,,.-~·.'•':·,··:.:i.'"',,,,·• • ' .-,~- '.~ ;:, .... ·,• " '',,,·•.' F • ' -:'• , '\ ., r "!O ; ,.,, ; ••• •"~ •• ·~ -~·••, •• ,' ,,. • ·• ; ·' :: •. ::\~,;:.,• .. • " . that those who put· -loyaJ:ty to the:tr. poli t_i9_al ·1d·eolog1e s :b~.f'.ore . ,~-.,. • . .. '.'c: 'loyalty-ii'o: their cou.ntt>Y:~1:+ou1d·:aot.=be_·in~·.po~it;tons ·y.rh_;!.ch::·g:t've:·· • . . ·: .. · ·:,. i.·. tham.acoess·.'to· 'St.ate ·s'eorets •. As· expeot-ed,-'a -f'evi,ref,.eren~.es :to .._ ; ..... ••.-· ' •• -~~e_·_B,i;l.rge~s;)ind•.Maciea#.:.~a.~e--:~~r,~: ~~q(')~_,.Jtti~,-'~.in;Y.,:~.o;;:s:~~e~s-_-, t~~:·:,.:t·::,/:~· ,· • : . L~o~; of\. ina=,.ght ;s~_own.by. the;tr ·-~up(?r:tors<:for_ ha."f.J::_ng-.-r~ta-~n~d·:_;,:·.. :· , .them _;n·.the F.oreign Off'i~e. ,whezr ·the:t.r _beh~(v;igu._rJiad l:>eco~e _:~l:?,ow.n • • •· ,·to<.·t];lem.·_·: :' __-,_._ ,:_ .·_.. •. • - ·.·._.:·· .. • • ·: ··-:::- · <·.(.,,-:,~.· ..,:.-·; . ·~•-;, '• ' ',• :• •.~• ... ~ • "'\ :••.. '• • /' ,:·.,. • ,,:,L -:t ,• .• •· - .. - • ,,',~' • S .• · 3~·: The ~oma: Seq_retary _spo~e for ·,th'e Goverrim~nt~~- :He. \.: fir.at repiinded th,e._niewbers abou,:; the. atmosphere wh_ich' naa,·pref-· .. · ·::,ia:1.1,~d wlien .•the iippointme)1t of .the Conf'ere:q.ce-of'. P:r;-~_y.y _Qt;?µ.ri:~il:I.9rs• ,, >•;wa.•s.de.aided. ·_There was -~t tht;i;t :ti,me: s"ome·-f'eeling that in ~he ,-. .. ,;:.taee· of the 1ideoiogica.1· tra;t t~r 1. :menace :·the prqolem o':f\~,~cu-r,i~y.'_•••.· ..., . was appr~ached from Ht,oo .liberal an ..:_agl~. ·).\'f.OW •~his,:~~~.~irig )1as/' '._ "~·-· .. c • ·.· g;v!:ln waf to _a fear that: the ·rights of,the·:1:qdtvi~-qa_1,·m1gnt:1?e in· .. ,..-_,· ·: ;3ome j eoparay ., ·MajO:r\ Ll:-oyd-George ''then _said tl1a t. ·the corp.pos1;:tion •. . . _ ,or· the· Confererioe .was such as ..·.to·· inspire· co.ntidence .and tl::ta..t. ·.. ..'. -,1 ..' while ~,the· :i:'epor-t:'·could< not <f'-or obviou.s· ,re:a.sons pu,bl:t'~:b:e.cL·:l,rf •:'.• ,. . : •full; , the- f'ii:;i.dings,..'Y'lhi'chi,a]fpe._ar'ecf in. tne wni;te.- Pa.per flhoµl_9-·re:... , ..._.. '. ·, .. ·_•. lieve both. sides •. The .Whit·e_,Paper :has •cle·ar.ly e~tablisp.ed ..tha:,t'- . < . ·_ •• •. ·::· • ·a-lthougri. • cert.a:t'n .ch~nges-·were ·.requir~d '~o,,·str.engthen'.°:-··t~~ .:·-...-. •• ,·...•.. ·:-.• . . .- ~: · security _s.ervi9_e~, _'there- was· n,bthing. ba~i?a~ly _wrp:hg wi:;th the • •. .:·...-: · . • ;system. · ·Hu .refe:rr_ed to: ...':the· suggest1011·. tba.'t. th,e :·Gover:r:un~.:t;tt should' . •..•.. •--~"-.-h~v:e_ ·w:tQ.er·pow,ers to· .detai:ri•· suspects ·and s:tat~d.' tha ii 'the.·' . > -~-.' • · . t:'ou.ncillors .re,oonmiende9- strongly agains_;t; ·any ·.a.Inendnien,~-: :~t ·the.. ,: . ..·:, •....:.law in that--respec_t •. Wh;t;I.e_JlP.men:~Jon '.yias'.made _oJ·:;·,the-•cir_gum~·e,....... • • • • • stances ..which_:.eu;rround,ed the :d.isappear~rice 'of Bµrge$s. :and, ,Ma.clean· •·.-.., it is_,_.Cl$ar, _.th'at\the 'above, sugge.~tion ':r~:St!'l te_d f,ro~. a ,de_sirEf to·' ' . ••~ . ·.'_a·vbi<i:t;\ r.e.peti t·:ton •o:t'..similar· si tu:ati•oris.;>~ The poli~y regarding~.:•• >'·c~nnnuniats ~rid· co:qmn.uiist '.:sympat_h:l,_sers~·-:]~'olleiwedby· p;re~;to:us·.' :' .._· .,.,.-...,_••, ... govermnen·ts., ..'l:~s _proved ..to ,be. a ··~ound. one ..and the-White ·Pa.per:._ ·,.,_ .. • ·-J . ., ~-_ recommendeq. .tha'.~ .1:ih~.yshould p.o't· ·be.· em.ployed in, the. C;tvil: .Service .. '· .</· 'in. positiori$-Jvhich would. giv~ them :acc~ss '. t.6 ::se6ret .infor~tion:, . :,qonoerning. th:e/C~s~.-··of· -~} Civil -SerYant having_ re,la·tives belJ,i:i;id... ,--.:· ., •:the Irotl;' .Cq.r1ia1n·, ·the . .lvi~:nis.:ter e'mpna:aizea that if' the :,e~lo~-.ee·,,. ·.,. • . <:."..··, ; : ha,d _to 1:re taken· ..otf' ,~e.c;r-e:t work., · eff'or_ts woulc.l b.e· mat\~. to:- •give •• •-·· _:..•him .employment ·in )fom~ o_t~er· br,ancb>- of the Cty11 • Service., .• 0ne : "· .".: :~a,t..~:gon: of• fec.uri ty ri'~ks whi_c1?, •·i_s p~rti cU:l,arl:,y..:vul,nera}?J:!3;.i~~- ·._ : ...:. ;·;·__~lµdes c.;v}-l"fer:~ants wi_~ho.ser.1oq.s 'eha:racter· def'ects~-·-i Y~t, tb,.f;)se-:...... .• ·c~~es a1"'e ·not_·'.to b_e deal:t.,:wi'_'t,ihby:aet ru.l~s but ·:r.a1ip.er considered·.,. ·_-:-·· • - • --~l+their me~i•ts· by ~;nia_ters_t~· or.d~.r to: a".6~d- any. de~,:ing of· a •·. -',"-·: ··, .,... '.·.Jus1r trea'!i:m..ent!t :,In, :r,e:ply.. to. a: qu~f:!t:ion :r~om: Mr.•. You;nger-.f'or: some.··,• .' ,':·:·•'figure·.~, abo~~ pu~~~g 1·._"tb,e:Ho:m.eSe9ret~_r·j::.:stated -"t11?-t,__ t~~ ~o_:t~J,-·,:_-·• · • . ": . ·.of ·th?1;1e purged ~-r_:ing_ the las_t_'five ·year~ w~-s s;l.x~y-t~o.,:· h:tn,e· in •, .. the ·higher .execµtive or ran.lrs ·and·.f!if'ty-three in -the lower· ranks· • ·, · • ..cpu.t ·of:.~- non-:-i~d-µ,str:ta.l· ·f'igur~ o:f.'650.,00C?°. and. an ·:trj.dustria.f·-'· • • .•• · .. i'i'gur~·'., .. ef' ~oo 000.·.' · · •: ·• · ..~ '· · . . :•· : ·\ .·,:::. • • ~·,:. • · :· <·:'.'-: .... • ,.· .• ~e ·,•' ,' ,' ,. ' ' ;, ' ' ,.· .•• ~i:s· 'i. •' _ , ,,/' ~---, •• ·---: .:· • , .·. : .::::r~-~ cot3:clu.ding 's~;iltem~n1/; .th~H~me-·:s~c:reta._r:r.~-. :':. • • _ . . :·. · g8:ye ~o tl?,'3.. House: an assurance :that .. ther.e .. was no -depar-tu~e :"'from· • . •' .;· ,' ·', ·.th,e :P.Ol~CY·l~i.<:l ·ddwn by previous ·go:vernments ..~nd ··tha t ·..the,fGovern- •. .··. " : :men.t '11:3-t?nded>tc;,-_tak~ the ·,_vE?rY, 'g~e,?4"t,es~',O!;lr~ :5'0,._tl;la'ti/,·1tis.''4:i,p:1~.;- ••...,_',,' •• ' .: ... catiop. ,iy:i.11,_no.t•,-JJnpingeunfairly,-,on·-,human .rights. ,-, . . -.· . --. ·. • . • ·_.: • • . . _:·.,\ , , .. ~·:;:/-· .. • :,r;:·,_·_."., _:~~·.,. ·,, ·~ , -~.::":~":~·,:..\" ... ; '-,\~~: _· .,.' , .· , , . - ~ -·~_':. •':· ~··: \ ., :·_,_-o •. ~·. ; • _,·; · .·: .. •Wp.;le. __ tli~:.-Cl:~foat\:).a..were·'~g;tve11;wide :--coverage:.in tne· :·.---. . -.pres~,;:· th.,e·y.prov:oked very little· editorial comment.·. ·'E:nclosed·.·are: . :iiwo...ct?P,_ies _·or: ;1:1~_Rous~.p;t.:'•C~I!D¥9ns· ·_of'fi'9ial<:Report dated.- llia:1?ch·_21, ..-~.-:_::' _;~~5$_ •. • '. ·, :•--',. -·., ;M• ~ ,' ' • • ,., ,• ,,: • \ ~ .j • "',,: ''.; _:· '.,·.·:-.,··~-..--·: •.,·.. ': ·.•;,- ,, '·f,••,• - ',' ','• <• ·-: ' '·~-.. ··•-~ .-.., . ;., ,, ;'.•,: ~-~ , -, \ - • ~ .·.-.:.. , ·.,··}. ·•.:: • ' ;( ~. _· : "' ·:·· .. ~;- ·. , , •' •,:_ • __ : .... :·:'·'~ . ... :· 1 • ... ...· <.::': ·:· : ' p .:~ . .. ,· ·:·~·-· ll' .~ s ,. ' ,· , -.~- f· • •.• ::-,· • ·:,·') ••• ·•·),·,: , -· ; ~. -· • 1 ~ ' • ' ,. . ~ ·, ; ~.-...~.. . • ., ,., ~- ''' ·~ ..' • ·; -~.:-·:-.. ·, , 000019 , • l •• �- • Docume'iit disclosed under the Access:aotifemfufr,Jt1ci: ~,_ ·oocument divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a l'iieformtttidff _,.Cormi,t1(tef!:,., J25J cannot be presented -until jus.t:6efore .ff • • ORDERS THE ·DAY is -disc~ssed-on- Second J~.ead_inganp iµ Committee_.·•·:That,. I : thought,, - puy• :.a special obligation 011 lllY-to inform :the CONSOLIDATED ;F'UNI;>, .~~L Committee .of this :change. 'ln addition. • Considered·in Co.mmittee.. • I took the step '9f·il)f6rming'·right· hon. · 6entleri1en opposite~ before the publica[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW 'in the Chair] tion ortlie Bill; that this iias our intention, • Clauses 1 a~d 2 ordered to stand part -because it would have been .unreasonable of the _Bill. , . .. . , , • . , .tohave .asked the Committee .to agree..to Clause•3.-(Powii( FOR THETREASURY·a cllapge·like this point bla,nk. -I trust-;I • . • .TO BOR~OW:) ' •• have made.out the case that we are acting Motion made, and Question proposed, re~sonably iµ o'~itting. the ,ies,tdctio~' oµ • . Th~t th~ Clause'stand part of_fbe Bi~t·· this oc<;a~ion.,.1 :::, , ·-·Mr. Harold Wilsjjn(Huytonf: Lik~ the 3.32 p.rp. , ,.. , ., . I do . The FinancialSecretaryto the Treasury 'Financial Secretary,to· the Tre':ci:si.iry, notseek to detain -the Committee long (Mr~ Henry Brooke):At:is m:y,duty to d~tain the .Committee to point out .that ·on t~is point since)here' ~s very· imin 011e 1'.espect,this• ClatJ.S~difftrs:..frqm .·por~ant·.deb.ate·to,Jqllqw; ,and .the tim~ ~i,milarClauses in preyious Consolidated for that is already somewhat limited--, Fumt . Bills .whic_hthe Committee_,has Mr. Ede (South Shields): Not to before be~n accustot;nedto pass. . Jf hon. Mem- 10 o'clock. • • '·" • • peri{will Jook· at subs,ecti<;m· (3) -µtey,will , Mr. Wilson: -but .since, as the.right find' thaf on tliiS.:occasion the provision which ha~ hitltertp restricted to 3 per cent. hon .. Gentleman has ,pqintecl'out,. this the ·rate of interest payable on· Ways ·and •involves· a breach of•precedent, which ,-1 thi~, .it is only right ,Means advance~ is orpitted, The CI;iuse goes back to 1,,941 deals with. the, Floating· Debt, and far that the .. Committee should · have an and away the ·greater part -of tliat is in . opportunity. of considering it. _ As he Treasury bi_lls. A small part is' norniaUy •said;-the Consolidated ·Fund ··Bill cannot in•day-t'o~day·Ways and Means·advances, l;)e. printed until after -Report of the as they are ·called, and .hitherto thereshas Estimates. • That means that the Combe~n this restriction; on'•'the'.s'ma'ller·part mittee might have had no opportunity t(_) but not on -the larger part, to a maximum • sppt ,.this fh~nge in pra~tice but for the rate of interest of 3 per cent. That right hon. Gentleman's •·courtesy in restriction. is .omitted from this. Bill, and. informing some 'of us and in ·informing it is 'doni ' for' a good ' substantial the Committee ·now. : ' •· • · .;, reason. ,:,;, This small but significant change shows At: present, the current market rate for what a t'angl'ed web,-Government weave day-to-day· money is abov~ 3 per cent. ,when -they-- tr.y·-to•· control- the-·whole It would, therefore;: be "Unreasonable. to economy by . means of. the· monetary expect to borrow m6ney .at 3 .p~r cent._~r weapon, and the monetary weapon alone. under. If, therefore, we are to continue The right hon.· Gentleman has •not told to enact a maximum rate of 3·per-cent. on us how much' bortqwing on W,ays.and _Ways ang Means adpnces 'the result wiII Means at- a_rate above··3. pe~.Aent. wm be that we shall not get the money, -and cost the taxpayer. Clearly, smce, ·as he instead we shaII have to borrow on said, Ways and Means advances.·are only Treasury bills at a rate which is now over a small part of the total borrowing in 5 per cent. Therefore, this restriction, the. period covered by the Bill it will be which has been in former Acts, designed, only a small part of the total cost to the no doubt, to save money, would cost taxpayer of the- Government's action in money if we were to retain it now. For raising the Bank Rate. It may be diffithose reasons, the Government have cult for him to say how much it is, but decided on this occasion, to present the I hope that at some stage he will tell us. ~ill without that restriction in it. a bit more about that. He made it 'clear that he could have I felt it was obligatory on me to build up the proceedings of the Co'nimittee to borrowed the whole amount·on Treasury explain this because the Consolidated bills, the rate of interest on which is not Fund Bill is unlike other Bills ,in that it contro11edand ·has not been controlled by 1:. -.25. ) __ .• _.o_ .nsol_l_4, t_lt,eil Fu.n_ if Bill-. _c_: "111' . :2l 'MARCH 1195.6 GF· ·,r ~ ' ' • t • and 26 H 10 r \ I 000020 �Document divulgue en vertu de lo Loi sur /'occes a l'info~"motionc• ' lJJ.lj . Oral Answers 21 MARCH 1956 Business of the Housel/& ~252 balculating_charges for treatment; what _ _ Second Class, ~s. 4d., with miBm of ~ the weekly:charge for eac~ class ; and 4s: _Sd•. ~nd, maximum _of £1 3s, ~d. what p~rc~Iitageof the beds ts .free. In add1Uon, t~e~e patients are l!abl~ to • Mr.. Lennox-Boyd : As tlie Answer to this Question. is rather Jong and includes a table of figures, I will, with pei:mission, circulate it in the OFFICIALREPORT. • • pay other spec1ahst fees for operat10ns, accouchement; X-rays, etc. • 93·5 per cent of hospital beds in Singapore are free of all charges. : Mr. Awb~ry : Is the Secretary of State ·aware that the average wage of, the SIERRA LEONE (FRANCHISE) Malayan worker is less than . 2. dollars 57. Mr. Sorensen asked the S~cretary of a day and that the charges for treatment in hospital· are mu~h more than that? State for :tJheColonies on what grounds Will he see that ·something.. is done to , Syrians are not permitted to vote in 'local provide free, treatment. (or. the workers government elections under the new fran• in the liospit~ls in.Malaya and_Sing~pore.? chise regulations in Sierra Leone. lV[r. Le~nox.;Boyd: This matter.,was • Mr. Lennox~Boyd: I hope the hon. ·Member is also· aware that 93·5 per cent. recently debate in the Sierra-Leone Legisof all the hospital beds in Singapore are lative Council, •which decided that no _free of all charges. • • aliens-should be· entitled to vote in local go".ernmentelections but that theie shoufo Following' is the Answer: . be· no ·restriction· in this respec;t pn racial For the purpose of calculating charges for grounds against .any persons born in the. treatment in Singapore hospitals, patients, are divided info fo~r classes, n~niely: • tertitory. Legislation wiU s!J.ortly:'.be introduced to give ~m;ct to this decision. First Class· A,'First Class ·B, Seco°i1d.Class . and Third Cla~s.. Patients ,in the Third Class pay no fees ·of any kind. ' Ward charges per diem for patients in the first three classes are as follows: In ordinary and maternity hospitals In mental hospitals Mr. Sorensen : Do ·1 understand from the right hon .. G~'n:tleman that Syrians :who ·are -naturalised or born in Sierra Leone will be entitled to .the ·f.ranc;ht~e'? First Class • First · ,Class A B, £ s. d. £ s. d. s. ci. 1 17 4 L.s 0 9 0 ~USINESS OF THE HOUSE: 14 0 7 0 That the Proceedings on any Private Business set down for. consideration at Seven o'clock . this evening by direction of the Chairman of . )Vays and Means be exempted from the p~ovisions of Standing Order No. 1 (SiHings of 'the House) and that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 7 (Time for taking Private Business), any such Private Business •may be taken after Nine o'clock,-,-[J\1r. Heath.] Second Class Mr. L~nn~x-Boyd : That is, so. Ordered, 1 3 4 Patients in the First and Second Classes are also liable to pay. specialist treatment fees per dtem _as follows: First Class A and B, lls. Sd., with minimum of £1 3s. 4d. and maximum of £5 16s. 8d. 26 H 9 000021 '1 �Document OJsCloseb unher M@ ACEMS lb)P,]bfihbllbh Ali Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces ii /'information ,. -1255.imsolidated Fund Bill- 21 •MARCH 1956 ·committee 1256 any provisions of the Consolidated ·Fund . I •shall. not detain the Committee Acts. The right hon. Gentleman rather further, but, in appealing 'to my hon: sounded as though he was taking a little Friends not to protract the debate, unless credit to himself and the Government they feel especially moved by this matter, f,or having saved the taxpayers' mqney I {eel .I should say to t~e. right hon. by this alteration in the foi:qi of the Bill. Gentleman that we shall reserve ·our right To use that sort of argument-is to behave to·debate the whole question of the cost · rather like a cutpurse who-stops·a passer- of the higher interest rates when we ·conby and robs him of all' his· possessions, sider what I may call rthe interim Budget but finally gives him his bus fare home of 17th April. I think that that is a and then expects to receive gratitude as better occasion for debating this whole a result. Here the Government are question than this afternoon· because then increasing the cost very considerably to we can look at the picture as a whole. the taxpayer by the rise in the Bank Rate Already there is an increase of about and trying to save a very small amount £1_00million_in the annual interest payof it by enabling the Government to ment compared with 1951. It is a fanborrow on ·ways and Means advances fastic sum when..one bears in ·mind the perhaps at 4¾ per cent. or some such recent mean economies. of the Gover·n: figure instead of borrowing on Treasury ment which are causing so much bills at 5¼ per cent. · hardship. • • • What he has not explained-and I do If we are to let this matter go this not press for an answer now-is why he afternoon without further-. comment, I .has not followed the preced_entwhich, I should like to ask the Financial Secrethink, was folio-wedbefore 1941~ Before tary whether he will give an undertaking 1941, there was an interest limitation in that between now and the Budget dethe Consolidated Fund Acts. I think it bate we shall have information, or will was at that time 5 per cent. Since 1941, ask ,the Chancellor, when he opens his it has been 3 per cent. we· understand Budget on 17th April, that sufficient inthat the right.hon. Gentleman cannot now formation will be available to the House continue with the 3 per cent. figure, but on that occasion to enable us .to debate we do not understand why he has not put ·tlie consequences of these increases in in some 9ther figure, such as 5 per cent. interest rates· to the fullest possible or 6 per cent: That might have been extent. In particular, •we should like more in line with the current Bank Rate. an estimate from the Government of what the cost .of servicil)g the National Does this mean, perhaps, that the Gov- Debt. is .likely to be in the financial year ernment intend to raise the Bank Rate which we shall shortly be entering. If still higher during the currency .of this the right hon. Gentleman can give an period of borrowing? My own view undertaking that we can have a much would be that the Government do not at fuller debate of this very important present intend so to act because they point on that occasion, I think that the never know more than a ~iay or two Committee will be willing to let the point ahead what they are going to do, so I go until then. . • . should not imagine that the Chancellor -Mr.'H. Brooke: As far as I know, a of the Exchequer has decided to take wide debate on these matters will be fo action of that kind, though it is probably order in _the usual days' debates followtrue that the Chancellor has it in mind ing the Budget. I will certainly bring that he·may have to. to the attention of the Chancellor of the It would have been better, I think, had Exchequer what the right hon. Gentlethe Government, in making· this breach man has just said about his desire for with practice, set some ceiling figure,. be- further information and for a full opporcause for all we know· we are Jetting the tunity to pursue these matters. I am taxpayer in for paying 6 per cent. or ·8 obliged to him for not holding up the per cent. or 10 per cent. or whatever proceedings on the Bill now. All I woul4 figure it may be to which the Chancellor add is that anyone who drew any connext chooses to. raise the Bank Rate, clusion from Clause 3 (3) abo.ut the after . his interim Budget of 17th April future course of· the Bank Rate would breaks do:wn and he has to take m0 re be rather unwise. • .. __ ., emergency, action. Question. put and •agr_eedto. 26 H 11 000022 �Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi 1'257 CorisolidatedFundBill- 21 MARCH 1956 PublicServices(Securi.1258 Clause or,dered to stand patt of ·the •Bill. Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. _•• Bill reporte·d, without Amendment:, Motion made, and Question proposed' That the BilI be now. read th e Third time. the public that we_ must be constantly reviewing our security arrangements. On the other hand, we ·ail realise, too. that the introduction of more ·effective St)Curityarrangements has been .makin~ some inroads upon•our democratic trad1• tion. .That is.recognised in specific terms in this latest Report,· where it is stated that the Conference of Privy Councillors • PUBLIC SERVICES (SECU~ITY) " recognise that some of the measures which •the State is driven to take to protect its security are in some respects alien to our traditional practices." 3.43 p.m. Mr. Kenneth Younger (Grimsby): I Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and rise to ask the Government some ques- Coln~): A masterpiece of understatement. tions and, I hope, . also to initiate a Mr. Younger : One of the things I want general discussion upon Cmd. 9715, entitled " Statement on ,the Findings of the to discover is to what extent it. is an Conference of Privy Councillors on understatement. I hope that the GovernSecurity." As the House knows, the ment will be able to give us some origins of this Report lie in the debate reassurance. we had in the House on 7th November, Whether it is or not, that frank admis• on what is now very widely known as sion in ,the White Paper is sufficient to the Burgess and _Maclean case. justify the· deep concern of Parliament That resulted in a Committee of Privy every time a tightening of security pro: Councillors, representing both sides of cedure is proposed. It also justifies our • Parliament, engaging upon an inquiry asking -today what the attitude of the into security • procedures under the Government is towards the problem and tc warn ,them that we shall exercise the following terms of reference: " To examine the security procedures now very closest v_igilanceon the way they applied in the public services and to consider carry out .the principles laid down in the • whether any further .precautions are called for Report. and should be taken." , When we debate a security failure, such Although that is the very recent origin as the Burgess and Maclean case, the of this Report, this is only the latest tendency is for there to be some. atmochapter in what is now the lengthening sphere of alarm about security· and to story of the attempts of successive demand, as was the case during that Governments since the war to safeguard debate, that some further powers should the security of the State in a manner con· be taken, whereas today, when we come sistent with the preservation of the to •debate the security measures themessential liberties of the individual. selves, I tnink that we shall find that the Prfor to this Report, the last major emphasis tends to be the other war-on for the·!1ber~y stage in the story was the announcement the necess~tyfor safeg_ua~ds made in the House in March, 1948, by of the subJect. That md1catesthat m this the then Prime Minister, my noble Friend difficult matter there can only be· a com•· Earl Attlee, as he now is, when he made promise between these conflicting con• • his statement about the introduction of siderations. new security procedures which the I do not know whether this commands Government of the day thought necessary general agreement, but I believe that we as a result of the security dangers which have no reason to be ashamed of the had become ev.identfollowing the end of compromise which we have struck on this· the Second World Wat. We all know matter in recent years. All of us have that since the war there have been some experienced about 40 years of world war notable cases of the failure of our security and revolution with men's minds all over arrangements to detect subversion or the world being -torn between cpnflicting espionage until fairly late in the activiti~s ideologies. We have lived in an age of the person concerned. There 1s. which was described· by Miss Re.becca. therefore, with that knowledge in the West a. year .or two ago as "The Age of background, fairiy general acceptance by Treason," yet I think it is ~mmonly 26 Hl2 .,, , ·1259, fl"•nsolidatedF1md Bill-·• l(..'._,"W 21-.MAR.CH 1956 believed" that;· desp1te that;· our,, public: service is not riddled· wi-th disloyalty. r think that all of llS in the House believe that in the overwhE;lmingmajorityour public ser.vants,of all ranks, are loyal and reliable. citizens. No doubt)t may be said that that.. sitµaHon has been secured at a ·cost. There must have beeff some cost in the operation of our security. measures to date. There must be some people. with grievances,· some· no doubt with justifiable grievances, because there are uncertainties in this mat:ter which seem to me inevitable. Nevertheless, both the officialswho have operated the system and the public who play a very important part in security by their general attitude to the problems of. espionage and subversion, botih these categories, have, on the whole, kept their heads and shown considerable moderation. When the system was tightened up in 1948 there was a debate in this House and anxieties were rightly expressed. I. think I am right in saying; however, that in the eight years which have since elapsed there has been no really serious volume of complaint. There must have been individual cases of complaint, but I do not happen to have had any. Also, there may be some grievances ·unresolved, but the lack of any public difficulty of any. kind shows that, on the whole, the compromise adopted has not been too unreasonable. Some statistics were given to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South:. East (Mr. Benn), in a Written Answer • yesterday from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, indicating that the numbers of people in. the higher grades of the Civil Service who have either been dismissed or moved, or who have resigned following the· better security measures introduced eight years ago, have. been small. However, those figures related only to higher grades and I ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can give us precise figures or a general indication o~ whet.her the number of people affected by the regul::t· -tions have been also small in the lower grades. ·We know that the public service is a pyramid, with. relatively few people in the top grades and far more in the lower. grades. There has often been a: feeling that less· care is taken in the individual surI' acces a/'information Public Services (Security) . _1260 investigation of people. .in. the -lower grades. This may be inevitable perhaps· because they are, more numerous_,and if there are injustices these are more likely . to be at the lower end of the scale than at the top. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman can tell us the figures for persons affected in the lower grades are as encouraging as those for the higher grades, I shall be grateful. Because I think that the compromise has worked well, I am glad that in the Report no major changes are demanded: Paragraph 8 states that .the main conclusion of the Conference was " that there is nothing organically wrong or unsound " about the present arrangements, but the paragraph continues by stating that there are • " certain recommendations, the purpose • of which is to strengthen the system in 'some respects." And adds that Her Majesty's Government have accepted them all. I hope that ,those recommendations are purely· procedural. • They may be of a kind which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot reveal in public. I hope he can give us an assurance that there is nothing new and radical which has not been made public, and that it is true that in approving •this Report we are not accepting any major changes in the system as we have known it up to date. • • I ain glad to note, also, that there is no' demand for statutory powers. Paragraphs 18 to 20 of the Report refer to the matter which was raised in the Burgess and Maclean debate, nam~ly, whether new powers were required to prevent sus• pect persons from leaving this country. The conclusion of the Conference and of the Government is that no new statutory powers should be introduced. I accept the argument in those paragraphs and I am glad that this is the conclusion. May I say, in passing, that I never really thought that the absence of powers was the basic oifficulty even in the Burgess and Maclean case. It is true that there is a certain ~gap in the •statutory powers of the police, for the very ·good reason tha-t we do not allow persons to be • held indefinitely without a charge. The real difficulty in these cases, however, is not the absence of legal power so much as the difficult questioii of knowing how long 26 R 13 000023 �Document divu/9.ue en ver u ... 1261 Consolidated Fund Bill- 21 MARCH 1956 Public Servlces (Secui-1- 1 , 1262 the House expected some report .from the 'it is wise to let investigations run when Government on the outcoJ1le. of. the the evidence is incomplete ; the desire deliberations of the Conference. not to alert' somebody about whom •, • , inquiries are still in progress, and so on. . The secon~ reas'?n why I sho,11~not I believe that -none of those difficulties hke to see this White. Paper use.a rn the would have been affected even if the Gov- way I have s~gg~sted_ts that_bt its ~er~1s ernment had decided ,that they would giYe of reference 1t 1s strictly limited m _its additional statutory powers. as I am glud scope. T~e Report :elates . to security they are not doing. proc~dure m the public services and to nothmg else, and 1t would be dangerous It is important to realise, in this con- to try to apply its wide generalisations in nection, that even if one is prepared to any other connection. I hope I shall not _give-the maximum of arbitrary powers to be thought to be unnecessarily introducsecurity authorities, as has been done in ing any party point-because that is not some other countries, this does not ensure my intention-if I call the attention of 100 per cent. security. There could not the House to tl,le fact that during the be a. better example than Nazi Germany, recent debate on Cyprus the Secretary of with the arbitrary powers given to the State for the Colonies referred to one Gestapo and a society riddled with paragraph of this Report on a topic comtreason before the war and during the pletely divorced from anything which the war and right to the finish. It is easy, by Privy Councillors were considering. overdoing the granting of powers to It is not part of my business. today to security authorities, to damage the liberty of many innocent people without ensur- say whether the sentence quoted by the ing the apprehension and conviction .of right hon. Gentleman from paragraph 16, the few who are guilty. about the possibility of revealing Nevertheless, although no new powers • evidence, was apt to_his argument or not. are asked for, I ithink that there is one It is a bad practice, however, if people major new departure in this Report. This get into the habit of quoting this docuarises from the mere fact of committing to ment as. though it were the British bible print and putting into an official docu- on security. r.t is not. If it is accepted ment, a Government White Paper, a num• by this House, as I think it will be, it ber of general propositions about security is accepted on the assumption that these which are very wide in their character and general phrases will be applied only in capable of very varying application. I this narrow scope--'-that they relate to the feel that there is some danger that this eniployment of Government servants in White Paper might be regarded as a kind the handling of secret information and to of charter of what may legitimately be nothing else. done in the name of security. A practice The third reason why I do not want might arise of people saying that anything to see this White Paper regarded as a which is covered by one of these general document of general authority is that the phrases is, ipso facto, legitimate. An generalisations in it are necessadly so appeal may be made to this document vague that in themselves they carry very in many cases where it is not appropriate. slender guarantees, if any guarantees at I do not think that this is a fit document all, of the liberty of the subject, and that to be used for any such purpose. everything depends upon the way in There are at least three major reasons which they are applied. In fact, in this for my saying that. The first is that this work, general rules, general statements is not a full Report of the Conference of al;>outthe class of person who may be Privy Councillors. It is a Government regarded as less than reliable, can never statement based on the full Report which be a substitute for the exercise of intelliwas submitted to the Government by the gence. They can never be a substitute Privy Councillors. While I have no doubt for discriminating.knowledge on the part that the Government have done their of the •investigating authorities and for best to balance it, to reflect the attitude the readiness of Departmental heads and of ·the Privy Councillors the fact remains Ministers to take the very worrying and that this .is only a potted edition of some difficult decisions which they have to do ' parts of the full Report. I am not com- in every individual case. Standing by plaining about this, because quite clearly, themselves, these general stateipynts ,a.re 26 H t4 . [MR. YouNGER.] .1263'{1fP1isolid'ated Fund Bi'il- 21 MARCH •1956 Pubiic Services (Security) .. 'i264 dangerous. I shall . examine some • of -.. This is not entirely a new •thing to them in ~ moment. . . mtroduce into our security procedure: i I have read one or two letters in the would refer to one sentence used by Earl Press from people, writing with the very Attle~ on the occasion in 1948 which I best intentions, who are worried by this .m~~t1oned. Hi:ivingdiscussed the <iangers document, suggesting very precise and ansmg from the double allegiance felt concrete safeguards which should have by m~ny Co~munists and, at any rate been in the White.Paper. Most pf them . potential, Fascists, Earl Attlee said are under a misapprehension about, the " ... the only prudent course to adopt is to real problem here. The intrinsic diffi- ensure 'that no one who is known to be a culty of the problem of security lies in mem1?er of _the. C(?mmunist· Party, or to be th f h I'k h ass~::1ated with m m such a way as to raise ~ _actt at, un 1 e t e operation of the !eg1t1mate doubts about his or her reliability cnmmal law, we are not concerned with 1s employed in connection with work the ' convicting someone on a precise offence ilatur~ of which is vital to the security of the _in which case we demand proof beyond' State. ~[OFFICIAL REPORT 15th March 1948. ' ' • ' reason~ble doubt. What we are seeking Vol. 448, c. 1704,J to do 1s to take preventive action which, Ther~ :Vas tp.e _doctrine of guilt by we _hope,· we are taking before any association betng mtroduced. precise offence has been committed. . • _Agood d~al more precision is given to . The information on which we ·act ·is It m the White Paper. For instance, para• m most cases, I think, somewhat less graph 4 says: than conclusive. Perhaps mainly for the . "This risk from Communists is not, how• reason that it is not information about a ever, confined to party members,. either ()pen o~ undergroun_d, but exten,ds to sympathisers precise offence but information about the with Commumsm." !flUChvaguer topic of· whether a person is of !1typ: who n:ight be likely to prove That is a much vaguer conception. unreliable m certam hypothetical circumParagraph 6 says: stances, it is very much more difficult to '.' of the 1:;hiefproblems of security to• have conclusive evidence 'than to obtain day.Qne IS th~s to :dentify the members of the proof of a specific criminal offence. · :!3nt1sh.~~mmun\st Party, to be informed of its act!Vlties arid to identify that wider body There is the additional difficulty, of t~ose who are :both sympathetic to Com• although I supp?se it sometimes applies mun1sm or susceptible to Co_mmunistpressure un_der the cnmmal- law, too, that the and present a danger to security." ev1de~ce cannot be produced. People I would say, in passing, that I find sometimes co~f<?rt t~emselyes by sayii;ig that a rather oddly expressed ·sentence th_at,after all, 1t ISqmte unlike a criminal and I should like some comment upon it trial. There is no inherent right on the from ~he Home • Secretary, if possible. part of anybody to be employed on -highly The right hon. and gallant Gentleman secret matters. It is not a basic human talks abo_utthose who ~re sympathetic to right to be allowed to liandle, top secret Communtsm or susceptible to Communist documents, so one can be much more pressure. He then says that they must cavalier about it. . It is true that merely present a danger ~o security, as though to transfer someone•from secret work to t~ere was some quite separate considetaother work. is not like sending him to t10n, apart from sympathy with Comprison, but it must be. remembered that munism or susceptibility to Communist it may ruin a career just as effectively. pressure, which constituted grounds ·for Therefore, the House must take the matter the decision_that they were danoerous to very seriously. security. "' I wanJ to say a few words about certain of the points of doubt and danger which seem to me to arise here. The first issue that I want to discuss is what is commonly called " guilt by association." That is a phrase which has become familiar to most of us in reading ·the acconnts of the security troubles which -have occurred. in the U'nited States and the campaigns led by Senator McCarthy. ·• 26 H lS '. Finally, and_perh~ps still more worthy of our cons1derat10n, there are the sentences in paragraphs 14 and 15. Para~raph !4 says: . . • • "The Co_nference also makes a series of re~ommendations _which turn on the risk presented by those m regard to whom there is no evidence that they are themselves members of the. Communist Party, but evidence exists (!t Co{!lmunist sympathies or of close association with members of the Communist Party." 000024 I �1265 .ConsolidatedFund Bill_;, 21 MARCH 1956 _ Public Seri;ices(Securitff/,\ .. ...'1·266 _ There has often been a suspicion in th<? past that the difficulties of distinguishing Paragi:aph 15 continues: a Socialist-perhaps • particularly a "The Conference is of the ·opinion that _.in deciding these difficult and often -bor~erlme Socialist of rather Left-wing ,views or- of cases, it is right to continue the 12ractice of a rather ·agitational temperament-from tilting the balance in favour of offermg greater a Communist have proved too great for protection to. the. security of the_ Slate r~ther the authorities. When the matter was than in the d1rect1onof safeguardmg the nghts debated in 1948 references were made by of the individual. They recommend that an individual who is living.with a wife or husbaJ:"ld Conservative .hon.. Members, then ip. who is a· Communist or a Commumst Opposition, to an. occasion • when Earl sympathiser may, for that· reason alone, have Attlee, then _Prime Minister, gave in to be moved from secret work, and that . the same principle should be applied in other cases Spain what was described .as the Communist salute. The person who raised of a like i:tat)ire." The House will agree that that opens a that matter was unaware that the Co_m• door· very wide indeed, for it _relates not munist salute .in Spain at that time was only to Communist sympathies on the also the salute of all the elements making part of the person under investigation but up the Republican side in Spain, arid that association . with somebody-not . only there was no necessary. Communist connotation to it at all. I am sure that one somebody who is a party member-who could find many other examples where may have Communist sympathies. this confusion is likely to arise. • Mr. S. Silverman : And without the ·when we come· to .the question of second requirement of the •provision in family . connections, we . are on very paragraph 6 to ·which my )ight hon. dangerous ground indeed. I suppose that Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. i+ll of us agree that if one came to the Younger) has already drawn attention. conclusion that a woman was very deep Mr. Younger : I agree with my hon. in the councils of _the Communist Party Friend. We have to recogrijse that a very and that she might •be a grave danger dangi::roussystem could b~ operat~d while if employed in the service of the State, it still remaining within the terms of the would.be only a 11.rntterof common sense paragraphs that I have quoted. One of for on,e to ..bve: some cj.oubts about her living . with her in . the same the_things that we want from the Gover!!· husband. house. • • ment today is an assurance: about• theJr . Mr. Silverman : Why? intentions in this matter. · It is an extremely -difficult thing-;-no • Mr: Younger:· My hoii. Friend mt!~t doubt some of us have had sufficient have· a very_ curioi;is conception. of reexperience of security work;· during .the lationships ~ithin f~milies if _ht?_ thinks_it war if at no other time. to know this:_. is possible; as a matter of common sense, to reach with confid~nce any conclusion absolutely to ignore family relationships about people's sympathies, . for they of this kind. • • chano-e from time to, time and have a This :is not a ·thing newly recog~is~d in differ~nt significance from one- period to this Report ; _it was also re9ognised in another as political situations change. . 1948.• When ·my right ho_n. F:r~end th.e • ·We all know; for instance, that there Member for Colne Valley (Mt. Glenvil are at any given moment m·any topics fCall) was at 'the Treasury, he. was _que~:tioned ·on this· subject and _rep1~edquite upon· which Commu~ist Patiy . _:p<;>li~y happens to coincide. with t~e pohctes of sirnpfy;_arid,· I think, very· v.:l~ely;that many non-Commumst bodies. Perha~s wlieti considering cases of civil servants the most striking instance at present 1s who might have Communist· wive~ each that throughout almost. the whole of the case rnust be· taken upon its Dlerits and Arab world it js often impossible ·to that he was: not. prqpared· to ·•give any distinguish a- Communist ·agitator frC!m·a answer of general app1ica,tion.: nationalist agitator. They may, essentially, -•I ,think that ,that is the sound line to be miles apart in motives, but • the adopt, though,·. •goodness . ·know~. it is propaganda which they put out- and, the difficult enough to carry 1t O!lt m eaClJ,; causes which. they ·advocate. are. for the individual case in practice. . I would t;tot like to think that -therabher greater detail moment .identical. · we· have··had'' a··1ot· of ·experience of which is entered into in this Report coni• that kind iri this country iri 'the past. pared withthe sta,tement·in 194ffodfoartes [MR.YOUNGER.] 26 ff 16 • • ~11611{f!!!JonsolidatedFund Bill.::.. -21,MARCH' 1956 Public Services(Security). 1268 that some sor,t of overall rule has now been . adopted. I would- like an assurance that ill these family matters every case will be treated on its own merits,, A,t the end of paragraph 15. there is the slightly worrying phrase:· there is a slight doubt in the mind of a superior ·about the promotion of one of his subordinates, the superior may inevitably have to give the work, as it were, the benefit of the doubt. • ,One really cannot make a comprelien,, ... the ·same' principle should be applied sive .list of the sort of vices which are in other cases of a like nature." relevant to security. •There jg some sort That means· cases of a like nature with ·of 1.istgiven here in paragraph 10 ;· 'it ·those of wife ·or husband. I do not lcriowspeaks of serious failings such as drunkenhow far the Government iritends that ness, . addiction to drugs; homosexuality, phrase to extend.· Does it include brothers or any loose living. Those are not, aria arid sisters? Does it include lodgers? -do not claim to be, an exhaustive list, but 1 know it is very difficult for _the Govern- I do hope that the Government will nQt i:nent -to give a precise ai;i.swer,but I make the mistake of thinking that •tlie hope that at least tney· will' give us· an sins which ·affect security are only what I idea of· their approach to 'tliis problem. might call 'the more Rabelaisian sins. • I : T,he sec.o_ri"d major poi~t 19 which .I can think of other defects of character just w t t f .. 1 th bl f as .likely to make· .somebody liable to an O re ~r: re ates to ; ·e pro em' O b_lack_mail or pressure from a S".'Urce·as character defects as affecting security. ...., This is dealt with mai_nlyin paragraphs the ones .•n:;ientionedthere. .For instance, 10, 11 and 12 of the Report_:_what may I would have thought that a more usual he called the relation to secur1ty risks of and just. as important matter was being defects of character and·. conduct:.·.• "I s~riouslr in debt. _ . __ _ __ suppose it is quite true, as is• said here, Mr. Raymond Gower (Barry): The that any defect,·of character or' conduct r:ight hon. Member might carry this' argumay make-a perscm·som~hat ·more.liable ~ent even further. • Often_· the ·most to Communist blackmail than an 'brain~ effective wor-kers in -this field where one ary citizen. But I 'should have tibought considers ·whether th~re is a threat -to that. quite apart from the p~sioilities of security are· people with •very· strong blackmail, this subject of defects of char-characters, though misguided. _ • acter is something which 1s relevari.t•to Mr. Younger: That is a fair point~One the •holding of all confidential posts, whether they be in defence'Ministries, in of the· real •problems necessarily is that t~e Treasury, or in private employment some of the people liable to be most such as in the banks : you cannot ignore dangero.us are idealists of the highest the question of whether a man is, gener- personal character and integrity who ally speaking, of good character or not. happen to pe serving a different loyalty. The only one of these defects mentioned • In the Civil"Service, as elsewhere, the problem of trying to ensure that you do in the Report- on which I want to say a _not have people of .{?ad character em- word is homosexuality, not because I ployed in your organisation is really not think it is given undue prominence here so muah a question of making intelli- but because, in my view. it has been given •~ence. inquiries ,t~rough·security aut,hori, undue prominence in investigations in the ties as a question of good personnel United States, where it has been treated management and good human relations. as somethfog on quite a different plane_in I believe that in no organisation, whether security from almost any other form of . it-be in industry, in trade, or in the Civil character defect. _Service,can one have good. morale if •• I do not believe that that is right. I people do not know the men and women believe many of those who talk as though wi.th whom they are working on a human they thought it. were right are really, in level, and ar!' not in a position to judge the woi:ds of Samuel Butler, trying to them as one ci-tizenshould judge another. " Compound for sins they are inclined to By damning those they have no mind to.'' • I do not think there need be any snoopIt is worth reflecting, also, that in so far ing or spying· on one another in this at all, i~ the human relationships in th,e as there may be •something to be said orgamsation are good. Of course, there about homosexuaiity being more of a are certain-types of ·work where there is security risk than other defects, the reason a very high degree of secrecy where, if lies probably in lhe very curious state o{ 26 H 17 000025 �Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sw /'acces a /'information :21;MARCH 19$6 .Eublic Services (S~cw1t:9,·~270 . .. _[MR.You~GEF..] . • . .. promotion. On that, 1-,wouldlike to ask •the crimi~wI law relating '. to homo- .the ·,right hon. and gallant .. Gen~lemati .~exuality, :wh,ic)lis something to which l whether-he envisages that the appeal pn;: :hope the JfQuse ,will be giving. attention . cequre which•is applicable .to people who before we are very much .olp.er.. • .are asked to resign or who-are to be. disOn this matter of character-defects and missed will also be available ·to those the obligation .of Departmental chiefs .to .whose promotion is blocked. know about their staffs, I hope , the I can conceive of very unhappy situaGovernment w.illbe able to ten us some~ tions where it might be d~ided that the thing about the type -of directive·they are proper course to. take ,was not dismissal proposing to give: It is clear .from the or resignation, but that the person con-Report that they are aware that there is cerned could not be trusted above a cera · danger of tale bearing· and malicious tain ievel fo the service and, therefor~. gossip. .ff ·they emphasise; as they do, .the full procedure might never be put into -this responsibility resting on·Departmental operatioq._,What w:ouldhappen, however, -chiefs,they must have something·in mind. is tlmt.promo_t~onboards _would.neverreIf the Home Secretary can· clarify it for commend him. I think it should be an •us, L shall be very glad: .. • jnstruction •in the· public service that if a I want to emphasise how important it clear µecisio_n.i( made ·t~1at.somebody is is that we sh_ouldnarrow as far as possible not to be promoted for this.type of reason, the field for inquiry and. action in these the appy~ls procedure •should be made matters. In paragraph 9 of the Report ,available to him also. it is recognised that there are specially • I want the Home Secretary to tell -us sensitive areas in the public service which whether, in his view, •the appeals prohave to be watched, more carefully than cedure ·has.worked well. : I understand others:-the Foreign Service;_defence,the tqat.he is not proposing to introduce anyafomic energy organisation. It . is tliiiig which .has-notalready .been i~1opera,ipimenseJyimportant that w~ should liqiit tiqp for several years. At :the end of the practice of what is called "positiv!:' paragraph 116 ~here is a reference to the •"'.etti,ng"and detailed inquiries,_sufficieI!tJywi<;Ieningpf the tei:ms of reference. Can to make the .process manageableJ(or .the he tell us what that means? Is it only a services involved. reference to the fact that in paragraph 2f •, • · • · , , it is proposed to extend· the appeal. pro.. _J beiieve that nothing-is ·much the cedure in some form or other to persons tinemy of intelligent wor:tc,inthese matters outside Govei;nment service who are ~n• as. mass. operations. The •1.arger tqe gaged on Government.contracts? If that number of people the security services are is l,\ll,it .means, we welco!lleit. called ·upon to investigate, the less can I certainly welcome. an extension of they ensure that every case is Jooked at some kind of appeal procedure to indus•by a highly qu~lifiedperson, and the more try, where industrial'firms are' working on difficult it is fo give sufficienttime to each matters .involving State secrets. It is not inquiry.·· •• • • really clear and perhaps the right hon. and In my view, what went. wrong gallant Gentleman is not himself yet clear princ.ipally it1..the United States in this exactly how he ,is to do it. Can he tell ,whole matter. Qf security; was that. they us whether, in the case of persons not emdid not _succeedfo. limiting the :field in ployed in the Governmerif service, it is which it was essential to have a very intended that a Minister shall be the strict measure of security ; it was allowed pers9n on whom lies the responsibility for to spread to the whole public service and the decision? .In the Civil Service itself far outside even to the point where actors it is the Minister who is responsible, but cpuld not get minor parts in films because if the procedure is extended to people for they· were thought at so.me time to have whom he is· not directly responsible, will shown some Communist sympathy. he be answerable? I think we ought so far as possible to Mr. Charles Pannell (Leeds, West): av.oid dismissals, particul~rly if there is My right hon., Fr:iend will appreciate that a~y doubt -in any case, and to use, instead, we are talking about a very restricted the pr9Cedure of trans(er -to other work. field.~.Jt is the easiest thing in. the world There is a reference in paragraph 13 of for the upper ranks to find. f,;1µltw_ith tbe. Report .to the pqssibi_Iityof blocki~g the work of the ~qtftsme°',on the f~~ory :q69 Co-µsolidated Fund Bill- '.'J2'7l~onsolidated 26 H 18 -floor and to get , rid- ·of. him· for the Much of what bappenecf'..i,n: the United •. flimsiest of reasons on the,mere suspicion •States could have beeh avoided had tliere ·'1:hathe may be married to a member·of been in existence a reasohabie seciµ'ity the Communist Party, or· living in sin . system in the years before agitation broke with a woman· who is a member of. the out. . We are -prepared to suppor.t the •Cbmmunist ·Party. I hope that my ·right Government in tackling <thisproblem so hon Friend will appreciate and emphasise far as· necessary and no. more; but we that this .classic defence.of liberty should will, of course, watch with the closest be extended. to the fitter on the factory vigilan~.e how these procedures operate .. floor and the.labourer on the broom, and in practice,· because some of the prothat it [s -not so extended at present. visions to _whose dange~ I have called There can be the resort to all sorts of attention are clearly open to abuse. What ·curious subterfuges to get rid of people we ask the Home Secretary today is tha,t • . on the flimsiest sort of suspicion. No he should give us all possible suppleamount of denial from the benches mentary information and, above all, opposite will get over that difficulty. evidence that the Government are as con. scious as are we on this side of the • . Mr. Younger: I agree that there is a pitfalls and tha,t they are , very· grave danger. I was about to say possible properly concerned for the rights of the that the number of persons involved, that .individual citizens. is to say, employed in inpustry in relation to Government 'work, is probably far 4.25 p.m. • greater than the total· number of peo'ple Lieut.~ColonelJ. K. Cordeaux (Notting• ·covering the whole of the Civil Service. ham; Central): I could not help feeling "Precisely because they are very often that the speech of the right hon. Member •·people in a humble stafion of ·me, they , for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) was slightly feel that they can easily be dismissed. -overweighted on the side of t,he freedom They are not in established employment, .of the individual, important as that is. :and it may be possible to turn them out There is . one thing• which is even more ''at relatively short notice, with ·practically important, and .that is the safety of the ·no reason being-given. country.. I very much agree with him ' I recollect that the ijrst ti;ffie.this topic that we need not more powerful but .was raised in its pr~sen_t.form _wason the more efficient security services.. I could ·occasionof some di.smissaJs.,froma Royal wish that he had dealt with that aspect :Dockyard, in 1937. Reference to that of the matter rather more than mereiy was made in our 1948 debates. In its with the question, important though it is, own way this is quite as important, and of the freedom of t~e individuat 'in some ways more important, than the The right hon. Gentleman -also said, many branches of the Civil Service, and I as. of course, we fully recognise, that the welcome the fact that appeal procedure . recommendations in the White Paper an'd, ·of some kind is to be extended into this indeed, all the matters which it discusses, sphere. I hope th.at the Home Secretary are but a .very small part of the subjects -can tell us •a little more •about his with which the Conference of Privy Counintention.· _cillorsdealt. It is perfectly obvious that Those are. the points. I want to put for security reasons that. must be the case. to the Government. This is distasteful .Tl,leonly .thing that thi;:White Paper could . subject, because it l.nvolvesinvestigation have done for the p~ople of the country . of our fellow citizens and action which, in was to give them some reassurance that some cases, is certainly beiieved by the the tragic events with which it· deals are victim to be victimisation. But we all not likely to occur •again. The public know that the danger exists aQd we must •would have been more satisfied if they attempt to meet it rationally and effi• could have .had that reassurance, even the ciently. I believe that nothing e!).n· be reassurance-that the State was "not more more certain than that an inefficient gravely threatened than it had been security system which fa riot properly· and before. rationally supported by 'the Government The right hon. Gentleman quoted from merely invites occasional glaring failures paragraph 8 of ·1he White Paper; which • • • •which excite-·pubHc ·alarm and lead to .·says: , ·spy mania and witch hunting which we •• •~Agains't the .1;/acl(ground'~f this g:i'neral -sawin the United States. ' •• • analysis, of which' only a v~ry brief outlinQ so. - • '21 • MARCH •1956 Fund Bill- ·Public Services (Security) ' 1272 0 a 26 H 19 000026 - �I 'Docilinen t d1vulgUeenvem:n:irlrrtorst1r-f'aeces a ./'iR~-ioo--.1. 1273. C01tsolidatedFund-Bill- 21 MARCH 195.6 . [LIEUT.-COI:,ONEL CoRDEAUX.] ;· PublicServices(Security.,1'214 more than was the case in 1945. Cer- has been given, the.Conference .address them- -tainly; 1945 ·was a turning point, when selves· to an examination of the Government's . ,there were some • people whom the security arrangements. Their main conclus'ion is that there is nothing organically wrong or security services should have considered unsound about those arrangements." and not regarded in a complacent "Organically" .is a rather vague word. The one synonym which· could be found· in a dictionary would be " fundamentally.'' Are we to believe that our security arrangements and security services . have • been fundamentally sound? I want to suggest that they certainly have not. Paragraph 4. of the White Paper very truly . points out that our security services, since the· the war, have been faced with a type of problem quite different from that which faced them previously. Previously, as paragraph 4 points out, they had mainly to deal with the person who might be called a pro~ fessional spy, an enemy generally acting for gain of a monetary or some other kind. Since 1945, we have had to deal with a quite different type of enemy, at any rate as a rule. That is the type of man who puts a loyalty to a political ideology before his loyalty to his country. He may be a member of such a ·party, he may be a fellow traveller, or he may be only a sympathiser, but he is the type of man with whom we have to deal. But that is not a matter on which our security services should have had to be instructed by. the Conference of Privy Councillors. It is surely elementary an9 something which they should have realised themselves in 1945. Mr. Younger: Is the' hon. and gallant Member not making much too much of this point? He is now suggesting that the security services had to be infornJed by the Conference of Privy Cquncillors of the issue to which he refers, but there can be no .possible evidence of that. This is not. a new issue. It goes back,· beyond 1945, for at least twenty and. possibly thirty years. There were people before the war who were· very sincerely Nazi, and who fell into the category about which .the hon. and gallanf Member is talking. Lleot.;.ColonelCordeaux: I would not entirely agree with the right hon; Gentleman about that. We have to deal with that type of agent in these days infinitely 26 H 20 manner, as when Nazi Germany·was the principal 'enemy. After 1945, when orir potential enemy became Russia, the security services should have regarded them if not with suspicion, then at least with an inquiring eye. • .. However that may be, they. did not appear to appreciate that point in 1945, and, WO['Sethan that, they appeared to be· absolutely incapable of learning, de~pite uhe fact that they had had some very severe lessons, wh~ch surely should have taught them. I do not..want .to delay the House by inflictiin:gon it · the long history of these pairticular cases,. but there ··were .uhree of· them-the· three a,tomiicscienttsts, Nunn May, Fuchs and Pontecorvo, These cases had '.occurred• in 1945, 1949, and 1950 respectively, and t,he poin( about all of them wasthat they had one thing .in common. A' proper inquky into the background· of these three men would have revealed the fact that in all three cases they were all utterly unfitted for tlhe positions whi'ch they held. So far as can possibly •be seen from the i iries made afterwards, re~ su11s of' came . to light •·in •this Ho-use, no such • proper inquiries were made at all.. • The last of these cases occtirred rn 1950, the case of Professor Poriteoorvo, whioh was, tihe \Vorst of all, _onlya comparatively ·short time before we ._hadthe Maclean and Burgess case. Even as a result of t,hat, apparently, our security services had not learned their lesson,-because we were told in the White Paper on the· Burgess and .Maclean case that, in January, 1949, it was known tha-tthere was a leakiage from the Foreign Office to the Russians. But no inquj:ries were made about the antecedents of Maclean before he joined the Foreign: ·Office. There may have been a vocy great number of sus,pects; I do not ·know. We were then told in the WJ;titePaper in April, 1950, the following year, tha,t the suspects had been narrowed d9wn t:o only two or three. Tha,t was after 16 month6 of intensive inquir.i'es,we must presume, a·nd still, although Maclean was one .of these two or three suspeclls: no· 12?$<~onsolidated FmuJBill~ 21 MA:RCH 1956 PublicServices-(Security), .-. 1276 .inquiries had .been made into his ante. this matter which I think it is important ~dents. The follo-wingmonth ,the sus- should-not be overlooked. ·1 am facili-:. pects haii;l been narrowed to . one-,- tated in my approach by the circum-• Maclean himself--;and stiJ] no. :i'.nquir,ies stances of this de:bate, separated as it is had been madt;,. If bheY,• had been made, by an interval of time since the matter of course, they would have rev~Ied the was last discussed in this House, on 7th fact thait he. was a member -of the Com- November last, for· since then there ·has munist Party, and a well~known Com- been the inquiry wh1ch the House itself munis,t• sympathiser, only a •very short quite properly asked for, and there ha_s tirrie berore he actuadlyjoined the Fort?ign been time for reflection. Service. These inquiries were not made. My main purpose in intei:veningin this The White Paper went on to tell us that, debate is to make a very special plea for later, .inquir-iesdid reveal that faot after a dispassionate review of this pr.oblem Maclean had left this coun-try. with a sense of balance and a sense of I would submit that, in view of these proportion. What the House is ,now confacts, it really is impossible to say that sidering are not merely .the circumstances there is nothing organically wrong or associated .with the Burgess and Maclean unsound about our security arrangements. case,. disturbing as they were-and one, All I would ask of my right hon. and can appreciate that, when the matter was gallant Friend is this. Could we not have last debated, those disturbing revelations. at least an assurance that a drastic over- should have· charged the atmosphere of haul of our security arrangements will debate with a degree of shock and anxiety be made, or rather, is now being carried -but the issue which we are discussing out, to ensure that the people responsible today is of wider character.' It is not only for these lapses of security are not leftBurgess and Maclean ; it is not only the never mind whether they are in the upper Foreign Office, detached to some extent or the lower grades-any more in posi- and different as it is from the generality . tions in which they c_anlet the col).ntry of Government Departments ; but we are down in the same way again? I believe now considering recommendations which that if we can get this assurance from my have a -vital importance and effectupon a right hon. and gallant Friend it will go whole range of Government Departments, further towards satisfying the people of involving virtually the whole of the Civil this country than any questions of per- Service. sonal liberty and freedom •not being t recognise, and in this I am sure that interfered with, important_as these are. I echo· the view of •the overwhelming Finally, if we do get that assurance, we majqrity of civil servants themselves,who can at least feel that from uow on, and have indeed through their representative as a result of these inquiries, we have tr_ade unic;m bodies repeatedly made it reached a position when we have learned abundantly clear, as hon. and right hon. our lessons, albeit at such terrible cost to Gentlemen on both sides of the House the nation. • will be aware, that they themselvesrecognise, the need-the unfortunate necessity 4.35 p,m. Mr. E. C. Redhead (Walthamstow, in present circumstances-to ensure that West): In the light of the traditional re- the security arrangements are vigilant, straints which are laid upon a •Member. effective and adequate. of this• House when he first addresses it, The right of the State to protect itself it may seem a trifle strange to elect to against potential traitors is undeniable. speak on the subject of this· debate-a In anything I say I do rtot seek to quessubject which is fraught with possibilities tion that right. Nor do I seek to defend, of a highly contentious character. It is excuse or condone those who, in abuse not, however, my intention to approach of their trust, are caught in acts of the subject in a highly contentious way, flagrant disloyalty. Nor, indeed, do I and if I should seem to err in that re- wish to make easier the path of those who spect, I hope that I may have the indul- may be tempted to·follow their example. gence of the House on the assurance that But I wish to urge on the House the such will be completely unintentional oil necessity of recognisingthe extreme rarity my part. • of that. type of case. • I desire only to .draw the attention. of It may be true that security arrange,the Hous~ to one or two considerations in ments have not hitherto sufficedto avoid 26 H Jl 000027 �lJocument divu,glie errverta de la Loi sur /'acces a 1278 ·of the character that these more sensa. [MR. REDHEAD.]· • " some getting through the net. It is per- 1ional events ·would suggest· They are haps pertinent to say that other coun- restive under the demand ·that there tries, ·whose security arrangements are should be ever increasing · measures of much more severe, still have not found security-and let us remind· ourselves them sufficient to prevent some of their that this is the third operation since the traitors-as they would think them-from ·end of the war. getting through the net, and we, in our I wish emphatically to say that this turn, have been only too glad .to avail White Paper gives. rise in my mind to ourselves of the evidence provided by .quite serious misgivings. I. appreciate ·those traitors. • that it does not purport to cover the That there should be such cases is, in whole of the Report of the Conference. my submission, no grounds whatever for In those circumstances, it may well be extending security arrangements in the that it has suffered somewhat in the Civil Service,·or in· the public services process of extraction of precis .and paragenerally, ih such a way as to endanger phrase. . My' right hon.. Friend the Memthe conditions of the whole, the majority ber for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) alluded of whom· _are loyal public ,•servants. to some of the points, and I shall listen Nothin•gcould be further from the truth, with great interest to the replY. o:f the and nothing could· do greater damage, :right hon. and gallant Gentleman on than 'to create, by what is said or done qehalf of the Government • I wish onJy µow, the impression that the Civil Service to refer to one or two points... According is riddled with Communist conspiracy, or to tlie White Paper, the heads of Departoverstocked with potential traitors, moral ments are to 'enjoin .supervi~ipg officers as to ••the • necessity. of vigila,nce; of perverts and.delinquents. • • reporting what they know ·a,nd.can. dis. It hl).sbeen my privilege to know the cover, not merely of the political assoCivil Service and have a close association ciations of those. iu their .cba,-ge, but of with it for nearly.forty years.· For thirty the .personal c}laracter and life of those years of that· time l was. proud· to serve -individuals. as.. a· member. Admittedly, I did not -belong to the " upper crust," which is These -are all perfectly ·prop.er things .sometimes erroneously spoken of as •about which a supervising.officer should though it constituted the whole_of the know something when judging the fitness Civil Serv,ice... Mine indeed w·as a very of those who work under him: But when much more humble grade: I mention this is done under the impetus of special this personal aspect only to give point to instructions .under this particular heading, the conviction and the assertion that the I suggest there is a very grave danger ·civil Service consists of a body of men that that which starts oil with the best and· women, the overwhelming majority • of motives, may degenerate into the kind .of which has a high regard for its duty . of thing which has poisoned the atmo• a:nd its loyalty to the State. Those civil sphere of the pub.lie servi~es of oth~r servants have a high regard for the good countries ; and I am anxious that 1t name of the service in which they serve, :should not happen· in this count~y. and when incidents of the kind of Burgess •We see these words used, "Joose and Maclean occur, they are as wounded living " and " association with Com• and hurt in their pride in their profession munists." • I have never been able to as is any hon. Member of this' House. •understand what is meant by that latter It is this vast majority which ten4sphrase. Indeed, if it is to be taken at fo the excitement, and in the more lurid its literal face value, there would be aspects of the Press accounts, wlien ·precious few hon. Members of. this 1ncidents of this character (Y'_,cur...:.._to be House who would escape high ·suspicion. overlooked in our consideration. Security It is not a • complete answer to the is a vital and important ·thing, but I assertion that these provisions, pressed in submit it is no less important that what this way, will give rise to tale bearing, we do in this regard should take due and informing against colleagues, to say cognisance of that vast majority. The that the ultimate decisions are taken by -morale of these people is important. They .Ministers themselves with the help of the .res~nt the suggestion that their service .is .three advisers. •1277. , <!onsolidatedFund Bill- I. I, II ·I 11 :l'l I ·:1 f 26 H 22 21 MARCH 1956 , ·1·17.9,lfYonsolidated Fund Bill~ Public Services(Securit.\, I I -2.l MARCH 1956 • -Public Services (Security), orma 10n in 1280 I would not question for. one moment point to which I want t9 refer, is in .the grea,tcare and impartiality with which relation to the so-called ·appeal tribuna1 the ultima,tedecisions are arrived at. But of three advisers. . The White Paper in many cases, ,that is far too late. The recommends that its facilities should be damage has. already been done. The extended to those who are affected by . poison in a man's life, both official and .these processes outside Government social, has already been introduced. The employment,. - To my hon. Friends who civil servant is suspended while his case may draw some comfort and reassurance is under review, and he is sent away on from that recommendation, I would say a period. of leave. His nei~hbours .that they. ·should be cautious in their whisper be1tweenthemselves. This is not acceptance of it until they .examine its fanciful. I have handled some of the effect. • cases which have arisen in this conI do not wish to . say one word in nection, and I know what a damaging criticism of the- eminent gentlemen who effect it can have on the minds of men whose only crime is that they thought constitute the tribunal. I have no shadow there was reality in our principle of free- of doubt that they struggle hard, with dom of thought and freedom of ex- complete impar.tiality,to be fair in all the cases which come before them. But there ·pression. is one fact which hon. Members must Paragraph 15 of the White Paper has remember. An unhappy officer may be already been referred to, but the last innocent of any intention of acting dissentence is worth quoting again .. I hope loyally ; he may have been the victim of tha,t the right hon. and gallant Gentle- a whispered allegation by some one who man will address hiinself to that para- has seen.him talking to .a Communist, or graph wiiththe intention of giving a clear reading ,the Daily Worker, and has drawn assurance about it. The paragraph states nhe worst possible conclusion ; or it may that " they., ...:....thatis .the Privy Coun• ·be that he is .suspected of having associacillors-:•tions which cast doubts upon his relia" recommend that •an individual who is living bility.. He may _then elect to go before ·with a wife or husband who is a Communist the tribunal. But he does not know upon· ot a Communist sympathiser may, for. that reason alone, have to be moved fr'om secret what evidence the allegation is based ; work, and that the same principle should be he is not allowed to know that·evidence. . applied in other cases of a like nature." What is more, he is not allowed any form • That is a very dangerous doctrine. _.It of advocacy or representation. opens up rue mo.stappalling and alarming I know that there· are difficultiesabout possibilities. It is one which,. if, it be the •situation.' The 'civil Service trades .implemented, must be implemented with ·unions' have repeatedly pressed upon the utmost care. . I wish to know how successive Governments·the view that in far iit is to extend. these circumstances men who find them• It conjures up possibilities of ,this·kind. selves in such a situation, which may A civil servant with long service and, an .jeopardise the whole of their- offi~ial impeccaibleofficialrecord may have a·son careers or even bring them to an end, or daughter who, in youthful ind.iscretion, , should have the opportm1ity'of advice and and against parental desires, joins the representation oy then: appropriate trade Communist Party. Incidents of that kind uriiort. I hope that .the right hon. and will happen e:venin the best regula.ted.of gallant Gentleman will consider that households. Is such an incident to make point. I submit that it coljstitutes a very .that civil servant suspect in his .official serious deficiency in these arrangements. conduct? •.Is that man riot only to suffer Eloquent tribute is frequently paid to .opprob_dumin the process of the investiCivil Service.. It is often referred to ,gation of his background bu.t also ,to ,be the -I think with justice-as the finest Civil caught under the equally , nebulous and in the world. If the tangible .questionable paragrap4.whioh talks of the -Service -expression of that high regard is not as . possibility of unfavourable effeots upon clearly evidenced in certain respects as an officer's promotion prospects? • it should be, I nevertheless hope that in , I do not wish to weary the House, or .this regard-both tllis House and the Govto take advantage of its indulgence, by ernment will treat' the Civil Service as if .traversing all the . points . which raise .they really •believed in· that tribute. -I serious doubts in this matter, The last ,say that because it i,s important to have 26 H 23 000028 �Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur /'acci!:sa /'information 1281 II ,1,1 ,, ,1 ,Consolidated Fund.Bill- 21, MARCH 1956 Public Services (Security. -l282 it·. is impossible to overweight the im[MR~ REDfJEAD.] regard to a body of men and women wha portance of the liberty of the subject ih constitute an honourable profession ; who .a matter such as this. we· -in.Parliament are as loyal as any other section of the have no-. heavier responsibility than. to community, and are entitled, not merely ensure that as. few inroads as possible on their own behalf, to expect the most are made into individual liberty. Our meticulous care to be taken in this matter prime duty is to- protect the individual by the Government;as their employer, but against the Executive. also to expect the Government to set a Therefore, in' common with the hon. standard and example' in upholding the Member for Walthamstow, West, I view traditional concepts of human freedpm some· of the statements in ·this White and civil liberty which exist in this Paper with mis,givings.. It _is a· mastercountry. , piece of understatement to say that the If I have _transgressed in any· way, procedure envisaged and invol-vedis alien either through the length of my speech or td our traditional principles. In· many in anything that I. have said, I can only respects it runs counter to practices whieh ask the House to pardon ·me. I hav~ • _have been built up in this country over done so only because l should have hun<lr'edsof years, in the fight for liberty.. reg~rded myself as lacking ii) my duty We naturally regard these steps with if I had not sought to speak thus for an alarm. Today, we have an increasing honourable and loyal Civil Service, number of instances of decisions being made behind locked • doors-decisions • 4.56 p.m. . Mr. Anthony Marlowe (Hove) : I am ·v,;:hichaffect one of our fellow subjects, extremely happy to have ,caught your ·very often without his even knowing what eye~ Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because it has been _decided. affords me very considerable' pleasure to I want to examine one. or two more. o·f be able to offer the congratulations of the sentences which occur in this White the House to the hon. Member ,for Paper. Paragraph 15 says: Walth~mstow, West (Mr. Redhead). We " . . . it is right to continue. the practice of heard from him one of the most remark- tilting th_ebalance in favour of offering greater able maiden speeches which we have had protection to the security· of the State rather the good fortune to hear within the life- than iri the direction·,of safeguarding the rights time of this Parliament. • The hon. Mem- 'of the individual." ber speaks with such an ease and assur- That is c~ntrary to the long-established ance, and a knowledge of his subject, that 'practice of giving the accused person the bad he not told us that he was addressing benefit of the doubt. It means that the the House for the first time, I shottld not balance is to be tilted against the have recognised his speech as a maiden individual. speech. While no one. denies that the powers The hon. Member follows a number of which are sought by the Executive in this distinguished predecessors at Waltham- White Paper, ·are essential upon •.tht stow, West, and, therefore, carries a heavy grounds of."security, it. is' absolutely vital responsibility. I would remind the House that we should ensure that those power's that both his immediate predecessors in are operated in accordance with the pri~due course made their way to the Upper ciples _of natural justice. It do~ n~t House-and it may be that he will com- come within the four walls of what .I hav,e plete the hat trick. We shall all be very always understood to be natural justice to glad to .hear the hon. Member speaking tilt the balance against the individual. 1ti in this House upon any future. occasion, there is any tilting to be done at all in and I hope that his promotion to the the balancing or juggling, it should cerUpper Chamber will be long delayed. tainly not be against the individual. The My hon. and gallant Friend the Mem- scales of justice should weigh evenly, but ber for Nottingham, Central •(Lieut."' Jf they are to be tilted they should not be Colonel Cordeaux) criticised the right tilted in favour of the Executive. hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) The White Paper goes on to say: for having-as he put· it-overweighted " . . . in order not to imperil sources of the importance of the liberty of the •sub- information, cjecisipns have sometimes to be . ject. I cannot subscribe to my hon. and taken without revealing full details •of the sup.gallant Friend's criticism; In my view, porting evidence;" ' 26 H 24 ' ' -128'3/tf onsolidated Fu,id Bill-",- 21 MARCH 1956 .Public Services (Securit;y), 128!4 That r·aises.a number -of-difficult·points. selected for a potential officers' .course, First, who decides,whether or not it is a and who, before that course is completed ·case which can be dealt with on the and they go before the War Office selec~ ordinary basis of e.vidence?-If the matter tion board for a commission.. are sudlis not properly safeguarded it will be- denly notified that they are no longer on come a common practice not to bother the potential officers' course and rhat the about evidence at all, but always to -reason is a suspicion of association-with shelter behind this· idea that the sources Communism. , • ,. . cannot be revealed. In a large number of These are very unfortunate case~, .cases, it simply .is not ti:ue. There are because in these cases there is no appeal .many cases wh~re it is quite possible t9 tribunal. I have discussed with the War reveal sources of information qr 10 give Office a case of a'young man who went to evidenc~ without endangering the security Oxford before doing his National Service. •pf the State. • While • he was at Oxford he · joined a . Dozens of cases were tried during the Communist organisation •or club. When war, in both civil and military. courts, on National Service he suffered this very where the sources of information were fate, that he was not allowed to go before given in evidence ; .some of them were a War Office selection board and was -tried at the Old ~ailey with a jury, so nevei;:given any reason. . When he went that the twelve members of ·the ,jury went to his commanding officer·and asked why, at large into the world afterwards know- the commanding officer said, " I do ndt ing perfectly well what bad happened, know. •It is an instruction from the War and in most of those cases never.was there .Office. I have only had one. or two any question of not ,producing the simil~r:.cases before. The· only ground sources of information. Indeed, as tQey ~hat one _can suppose is security." That were dealt with under die ordinary pro- 1s all the man w.as told. • ·cesses• of criminal law, the sources of Many young men join foolish clubs information had to be 'disclosed:· In a when--they are undergraduates, but it 'is great numher of ·cases it can be done most unfortunate· if they are to be without danger. I agree that there are b d d f h f I • 1· cases in which it cannot be done, buf it ran e or t e reSt O t 1e1r ives merely because they have done so. In that proshould not be thought to become the cedure there is no kind of appeal, nor is common practice· that because this sort the -'man. concerned officially informed. of rule exists, every case should be dealt He is simply withdrawn from the officers' with on the basis of not revealing sources course arid returned to his unit. In such of information. cases a man ought to be given an opporOn this paragraph, I am concerned tunity at least •to defend himself. He about taking cases as proved against a ought to be brought not necessariJy·before man on standards which would not be a tribunal, but at least a competent accepted in a court of law. Again, one authority which could give him the opporagrees that there may be cases in w~ich tunity of explaining whether he. is still that is essential, but they must be kept tainted· with the organisation .which he to the very minimum, and wherever the had joined as an undergraduate. I hope ordinary standards which would be that the Government will consider that acceptable to a court of law could be point, because it deserves.the considera~ adopted without dange.r to the . security tion of this House. , that ought to be d.one. We -all recognise that some .of these There is· one other point w1th which I powers have to exist, but we have our want to deal and which is not strictly prime duty to see that they are exercised within· the White Paper, but which I only in cases of extreme urgency. We should like the Government to consid_er. are here to defend our liberties as far As I have said, there are today far too as we possibly can, and we must never many cases of decisions being Titade be- surrender them more than is absolutely hind locked doors. In addition, there are essential for the security of the State. other cases involving another procedure 5.7 p.m. which is akin to the subject under disMr.- · W. Griffiths . (Manchester, cussion today: There have been raised Exchange): I have often heard the hon. in this House two or three cases of and learned Member for Hove (Mr. National Service men who have, been Marlowe) during the time that l have 26 H 25 000029 �Document divufgue en vertu de la Loi sur f'acces a /'information l285 ,ConsolidatedFwid Bill.;;.. 2li MARCH '19'5'6 Public Services (Securit)\~·(1286 [MR. GRIF.FITHS.] -happened to individuals who have been 'been in the House, and more often than proceeded • against under this security not I have failed to agree with him, but -procedure. today I agree with most that he has said. • The ·first is the case of a Post Office He bas· touched on some· very important en•gineerin the city of Manchester who, matters indeed. sp far as I could discover, was certaiqly I am one who regards this White Paper not engaged in work that ' could. be as being almost wholly a deplorable docu- -regarded as highly _secret. Nevertheless, ment. I am very sorry indeed that my ·he was suspended from his job and hailed right . hon. Friends the Members • for before the " three wise men " to whom :Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and my hon. Friend • the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) ~ave Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) has subscribed to it. I am not so surprised referred. Incidentally, I said a little that the noble Lord, Lord Jowitt, did so. earlier that I, was rather disappointed that f>fhosewho subscribe to this policy are my right hon. Friends had. subscribed to here setting their hands to a further incur- ·this present document; but f may say that sion into the liberty of the subject of a I am particularly surprised that the docu• most serious nature. ment envisages no change in the rights We should remember the experiences in of a:ny individual brought before the other countries, including countries which tribunal to be represented by an advocate are regarded as part of the free world. or by a trade union representative. As ·an example of how far one can go in We !Jave all had experience of people these matters, I am reminded of the story who ha:ve had to appear before a judicial • 'told to me by a friend of mine who was or a quasi-judicial tribunal of any kind. a year or two ago a lecturer for a time at They may be b:r-illiantmen in their own Princeton University and who had the sphere but have no ability adequately to astonishing experience of discovering express themselves when appearing before 'there that in their security-procedure they a tribunal such as this, although the conhad found it desirable to incorporate into sequences to their future may be the University of Princeton members of immensely serious .if their case • is not 'the F.B.I. with 'the object' of observing the properly deployed anq properly heard .. I behaviour of the students of'that Univer- ·,hope that even now my· right hon. and sity. Further than that, he told me that hon. Friends will pursue this so that while they had reached the stage where the we are reconsidering the procedure we 'tlistinction of being awarded a Fulbright might at the ve:ry least see that a man scholarship was no longer ·.achieved on brought before the tribunal has the right the basis purely of academic distinction. to representation, Jt had become very important to pass the • The man from ,the Po9t Office to whom security checks with the attached F.B.I. refer took the line, rightly .or wrongly, before being awarded that scholarship. Ithat his political views 'ly'yr'ea matter for I am sure that hon. Members in all parts hims-e.lf •alone. When he got to the of the House would consider features of tribunal he <,1:sked wha,t way he was that kind to be undesirable in Great supposed ,to have in failed in his duties. :Britain. .and what were the charges against him. Much of what I am going to say has T,he tri1bunal,which is bound by certain been said in an admirable manner, which terins of referenc_e,'was obliged to tell I could not possibly emulate, in the speech him that all it could put to him, and all •made by my hon. Friend the Member for tliat he was called upon to answer; was Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) who, the queS1tiort," Are you or are you not I think, put the case perfectly. I wanted ·a Communist?" He refused· to reply. to remind the House of what has In short, ihe took rather the same kind of happened in tµe past to people on the line t'hat Paul Robeson is taking in the lower levels of the Civil Service under the United States at the present time. procedure that has been employed ,b_y Mr. Robeson's passpo.vtis being with• successive Governments. If the House 1s •held by the United States authqdties. going to approve this document, we ·might He could have it if he made a declaraas well realise clearly what we • are tion of his political belieJls,but he refuses approving, and I should like just briefly to do so. • So did this young man :in the to ~ve three examples of what .has city of Manohester. He may have been ~6 H 26 • l287.1!J¥onsolidated Fund Bill-'- 21 MARCH 1956 ,unwise to do so, but the fact is that he • refused to answer as -to · his ·political beliefs. He said that it was not a matter for anyone but himself and again asked what the charges were against him as to his work. However, -the tribunal is not there to go into such matters, and nothing further could be done. -He was told that the tribunal found him not fit to occupy the position he held, and be was relegated to an inferior position, with con'sequent loss of earnings. Public Services (Security). , 1288 was laid down in 1948 by the Labour Government, and· about that I had serious misgivings at. the time. But let it be clearly understood that the procedure embarked on in 1952 went much further than that of 1948, while the present White Paper envisages a very much more serious extension of the procedure than was the case in the other two. • Let hon.· Members consider the kind of questions that people have to answer in these matters. This case concerns a -The second case concerns a man who man employed in the Risley atomic for .a period of six months in 1953 was energy undertaking. He had to fill in a employed as a temporary assistant in- questionnaire and was asked by the •for_mationofficer in the Air Ministry. He security officer questions of the fo1low•, wntes: ing kind. There were the elementary "I realise of .course that there is a need for questions about date and place of birth ; security measures. iri a Service Ministry, and all addresses since birth. with dates of I could have no objection to ,inquiries into , my loyalty if they did· not ·violate my right to -removal ; all •. schools and colieges live a private life. It would therefore seem attended,, full-time and part-time since to me entirely reasonable that, in the interval the age of four ; !lll occupations, enibetween my interview· and my appointment my 1 d dd reliability should be questioned, and I w~uld P oyers an their a . resses and _departnot expect to be _appointed if there were any ments in' which employed· since leaving _doubt of it." . , . .. . school at age of 15 ; and addresses of -After he was appointed, however, an ·societies.of which a member-includ•·along ,to his lodgings came an officer ing such things as his .allotment as_s9_from Scotlang.Yard who inquired of his ciation. Indeed, he was questioned as . landlady about his personal habits and to where the plot on the allotment was. asldng whether she knew anything about. He had to say what church he attended his politics.. It went further than that. ,, and give full details of his interests and This man lrn.i1cdfrom the Midlands. The activities there. He bad to give full police of the Midl<J,nd .county from which information regarding the great amount he came also. inquired in his town of of general work he had organised and trad~smen, of friends and of members taken part -in with others in the church. _of the family-all in a manner calcu- He was asked about the function of the lated to raise in the minds of people.who church. • knew him suspicions of the wildest kind. He was also The man had no opportunity at ·all of " Questioned persistently as to wl;tether I hearing about _itor knowing about itany political affiliations, whether a Com, in fact, he discovered only by accident had munist, Fascist or belonging to any such that these enquiries were being made. society." Surely such a procedure is quite deplorable, and I suspect that-although I He was asked when he was marr.i'edand long he was likely to remain at his _have chosen to· refer briefly this after- how present address ; heigiht, colour of •hair noon to three ca~es which hap,pened to and eyes, verifica:tfon of signature, etc. come to my notice-this has gone on in He was then asked simi:larques,tionsconvery large number of cases concerning cerning his father a-nd mother, each quite humble people-not people in brother and srster, half-brother' and halfwhat my hon. Friend referred to as the sister ; about his wife, his wife's parents, highest crust of ,the Civil Service. brothers, sisters and so on. The third case· is one to which I have Mr. W. R. Wil!iams (Manchester, previously referred in the House arid Openshaw) : One would n~ed an encycloconcerns the new procedure adopted by paedic knowledge to am,wer all that. the Conservative Government in 1952. Of c'ourse, as my hon. Friend the MemMr. Griffiths: Funther, he was asked ,ber for Walthamstow, West has said, this the name of the head of his department; is the· third • development , in security . asked 1:10give his frank opinion of the procedure since the war. One procedure -head of his department, how he iot on a 26 H 27 000030 I, i, �Document divulgue en vertu de lo Loi sur /'occes a /'information I I ).. 1-289 Cq1JsolidatedFwid B.ill---: 21 _MARGH .1956 Pub,lic Services (S11cur.ity.,'1290 . . [MR. GRIFFITHS.] . . national administrative machine contained ,with him·; wJrnt politics were. discus·sed q .Jqrge • number: qf ·comrp�111is.t.symp 1t7 in the offiye. by members of the- staff. tlµsers. Jt was a v�ry difficult,tas� for the f.{e was asked about. nhe geqeral political So_ctalist Government, ,having . regard :-to viewpoint of the office, and ·whether any the views held in this country. 1tbout ,the of the office staff • held extreme vi:ews liberty of the subject, to ensure that those politically. w�o were our.friends during the war and I have ·referred to that case before in who in peace _beca�e om;: enemies, were the House I know but all these are not retained in. positions. in _which secret matters extreme, seriousness, and I information bec_ame _available . which, if hope that we are to hear from the ·Home llsed improperly,, might endanger the Secretary-and from any other spoke�- State. man on the Front Bench on this sideThe then Socialist Prime Minister, now a little ·more than we have heard so far the noble Earl Attlee, appointed three in support of • this document, in order advisers to help him over some of those to justify this extension of the powers difficulties with which the Labour Govern­ of the Executi:ve into the. affairs of ihe ment found themselves faced at the time. individual. • Ifl remember rightly, he asserted, what I am sure · would be whole-heartedly sup­ 5.20 p.m. . Dame !rene Ward (Tynemouth) : I ported by the House, that he was certainly should like to make one brief observa­ not going to tolerate a Third International tion about the very pungent speech we · in· this .country. I know very_ little about heard from the hon. Member for Wal- • the work of the security machinery, but it thamstow, West (Mr. Redhead). He w&s must have caused grave concern when a Httle pessimistic about the Civil Ser­ Burgess, whose Coinniunist leanings and vice a-nd i:ts ,reaction to the White Paper. sympathies were very well known_ i� I happen lio represent a very large London, became an established member number of civil servants. I do not mean of the Foreign Service in 1947. I J;iave no • to say that they are my voters. They doubt that it was a very difficult decision are my oonstitments. No doubt a great for the Socialist Government to take to many of them voted against me. A great appoint tqose . advisers, ·but. tlie, " three ma-ny civil servants also reside in the advisers " mac}:J.inery arose oµt of the very constituency of my" right hon, and gallant real danger with which the security of the Friend bhe Home Secretary. nation was faced after the change-over to a potential enemy of •our frienqly ally, • These civil servants are a very hard­ Russia. working, happy and courageous body. I do not think they will be unduly disturbed I rather regret that that point bas not by the introduction of this White Paper • been sufficiently emphasised in the coun­ with its outline of the further security try. There is no doubt that people were measures which the Government have in and • still are seriously perturbed about mind. I have such an admiration, as most what was known as the Burgess-Maclean hon. Members have, for the Civil Service incident ; the more we clear it up, the and the Foreign Service that I think those better will people be pleased. That is why Services will be just as anxious as we are I· welcomed the all-party Conference of to protect the security of the State. It Privy, Councillors and• the decisions that gave a wrong impression for the hon. it has come to. Indeed, though I take full Member for Walthamstow, West to advantage of the liberty-of-the-subject assume, however charmingly he put it, ideal, in my view it is very wise to tilt that the whole Civil Service would. be un­ one's security in favour of the State, duly disturbed by the meas.ures proposed because, if the State is infiltrated and penetrated, that is the end of the indi­ - by the Government. ·• • liberty of the subject. vidual' I want to re-emphasise one of the points made by the hon. and gallant Member. for _ I have only one other point to make Nottingham, Central (Lieut-Colonel Cor­ and this is my only opportunity for deaux) which has not been sufficiently making it. It is a difficult point; but. I emphasised. At the end of the war, be• want it put on the record. I am sorry cause Russia had been our. ally for a num­ that it will have to be replied to -by the ber of years and then subsequently became Home Secretary because- it is not exactly, a potential enemy, all ])epartments of the his responsibility, al 1 26 H 28. Public Services (Security) . 12�2 21 ·MARCH . .-1956 1291 .•nsolidated Fund Bill� . , I refer to paragraphs• 10, H and 12 of resl?�ns1ble been . �e!-11-ovecj from _his the White ·Paper, _which I fully support. pos1t�o°: ·o� respo�s1b1hty? I do not-thmk I think the country will be wholeheartedly that 1t 1s m_ the -mt�rests of a sound and behind ·the Government in the implica- secur�. Foreign •Service to recemm_end _th� tions · of these three paragraphs. • If I try, retent10n of a man· of the character of in all humility, to ii,-tterpret the views of Maclean: the country, I think I can say that _people I hope that my right hon: arid gallant were more shQcked by the �ehav1our of Friend appreciates that the Government, Maclean while he was in Cairo _tiha� t�ey by not giving an answer, have implicated were to know that we had a traitor ms1de everyone.. That is most unfair. to th_e the Foreign Service.' The cou�try J;ias a Foreign Service and to those who are not great appreciation .of the digm�y o� t�e culpable. If it was not the Establishment Foreign Service and a great _Pnde: m it. Department at the Foreign Office, was tt People found it· absolutely mexphcabie political interference? I put the question that a lllan who behay�d as Maclean_ did directly. I appreciate that when we are -'-this was outlined .in very great detatl ·on discussing these great matters of security the last debate by the right hon. Member it is in the nationai. interest that both for Blyth (Mr. Robens)_-shoul� have sides of the House should be agreed, but been retained in the Foreign Service and speaking as a mere woman, I must say in such an important post. that sometimes this "old boy." business me down, and I want to know who The Government have never satis­ gets took the decision about Maclean. factorily cleared up this m�tter. Believe If it' w·ere a political decision, is it not me, it is most important Ill the fut1;1re foterests of the Foreign Service, for which fair that that should be stated? I do we all have such an admiration, that the not want to know the name of the Minis� matter should be cleared up. That is why ter ; I am not interested in that. I want I want to pufit on record today. This . to be sure that in . dealing with such matter is linked up with the three para, matters, which affect character and graphs of the White P_aper. Wh�t has reliability, no political interference or never been cleared up 1s whether 1t was influence can be exercised from one side the responsibility of ·the Ambassador, the of the House or'.the oth·er to retain peopl� chief establishment officer, or of the in· posts for which they are riot suited. Foreign Secretary _-of the day, • that I say to my right hon. and gallant Maclean after a· period of rehabilitation, Friend, with all the emphasis which. I was· re-e�ployed by the Foreign Service. can command, that the Government have I tried to elicit the information about the left a very nasty taste in the mouths of Ambassador in a Question the other day the people ·of this country by· nbt telling addressed to my right hon. Friend the them how and why Maclean was retained Minister of State, from whom I got a very in his post. Reference has been made to dusty answer. The answer was that, in the iower ranks, and I remember asking fact .all that the Ambassador had done the Postmaster-General about a young girl was' to report on the condition of who had gone, full of life, into the Post Maclean's ·breakdown. If that is so; I Office and had not declared that in one assume that the Ambassador did not of· he� previous jobs she had been in suggest that after rehabilitation Maclean trouble over some cash. That was a should be re-employed. child of seventeen. Did the Postmaster• It narrows down to the other two, the General exercise discretion on her behalf? Establishment_ Department .and the chiet Not a bit of it. Out of the service of the establishment officer or at political level. Post Office she had to go. If we are to I have met and • admired during my show m·ercy and justice over the very experience many, of the chief establish­ grave and appalling behaviour of Maclean en ment officers in our Foreign Syrvice. Was -1 myself see no reason fortothat-th_ exercise ought Departments .. other it the decision of the Establishment Department and of the chief establish­ mercy and justice, too. People always put this point to me:· ment officer. of the day? If it was his decision,·and if it was not taken at ·any they do not understand how • Maclean other level at all, I want to know whether ·could have· been retained in our dis­ there had been an alteration ·in the Estab­ tinguished.. and • • admirable -Foreign lishment Department. Has whoever was Service, . We admire the nien ·and women 26 H 29 000031 �'..ti9-3.. bonsolidatelFuriaBill-=- 2.1-M'ARCH 19'56 Public Services (Securit'1, "i294 . [DAMEIRENE WARD.} -···.. _ thing ab·out such-failings· as. drunkei:n~s 'of impeccable character wh? ser-,e m·tlie or addiction to drugs,,·ot loose hvmg ;Foreign Service all 1over the -wo~ld;and, generally, is' that they lay ·a mart open ·,apart from -this-·one instance, ~: do not ·to blackmaiL Surely these are serious think -one of them would subscribe to _a things: in themselves-things _which a 'suggestionthat Maclean should hav~ been superior . offi~er: or ~he establishme1;1t_s retained. .It is no.t -only a quest10n. ~f Department m the Goverqment _service bis being given a seconµ chance: Imagine ·ought. to know about, quite apart from bis meeting, in Washington, the former any question of blackmail.' ,First Secretary .-of:the Fre':ch_.Embassy • The hon. Lady has asked a number of in Cairo after such an incident ·had questions of the Governm~nt... She asked 'occurred? I know enough about ,the who was responsiblefor allowing B,urgess \Foreign Service to realise· what a bad and 'Maclean to continu~ in. the Foreign ijmpression•that would make. Office. That is-a question for the Gov• · I hope that befci~e these events are ernment to answer, but I would hazard brought to a conclusion we shall be _tt?ld a su0 gestion 'that it is prol:>a,bly 'difficult who was culpable 'and whe~her the m- to pin respqnsibilHy• on ?DY -~rte indi. dividual was moved by the votes of the vidual.. When we·are·dealmg wrt!hpeople !people or by the process of the Gove~ti- in the higher grades like· this, there ~re in:ient working·· on sound secunty probably a great many p~ople, includrng principles. the man's political superiors, "'.ho have a say in. •the matter.· I support the White Paper. ,Everyh !body is happier that we have got -our : Surely the lesson to be lea!ned is_t ~t new arrangements and that. we_ can the management of the p~bhc _service1s emerge from a bad dream. ~nd work for· ex:tremelyimportant, and· tn this ~ase at iward in our own trad1t10n~ for, the least it broke down: • However 1mpor• security and protection of the State as a tant security .may •be in other respects, whole. · that' is ·an· important matter quite apart from seci!rity. 5.35 p.m. . It ·is important that we should try 'to Mr. J. Grimond (Orkney and Shet- keep..the procedure which the Conferenc~ land): Like many other hon. Members, I of Privy Councillors has r'ec_ommend~i:l have looked with a c.ertain distaste.at the down to .the 'ininimur'n numbers of cases White Paper and .at .some of the pro- and grades. We should restriof it to cesses it recommends, but we_ m.m;t ·people who· are liable to c~me in contaot recoonise that an extremely serious prob- with secret documents and other secret O lem exists and that serious • cases of information, which, if thef were to leak traitorous behaviour to the country have out would be severely damaging to the happened. It is essential that we should country. try to segregate what is really serious and • · Like other hon. Members, I do not try to deal with it, and tpat we should at all happy about some of the· thin~s not allow our suspicions to wander over feel which happened to lower grade pera general •fi~ld,. spreading unn~CfSS~ry sonnelhave in the service. I can hardly be• alarm and brmgmg unnecessary m1ustice to all sorts of people who may prove to lieve that some of the instances about which I and others have heard, such· as be entirely innocent. the treatment of people in th~ Post qffice, I agree very much with the_hon. Lady • have been necessary on ·security grounds. the Member for Tynemouth (Dame lreQe Nor am I. happy about the appeal pro• Ward) ; it seems to ~e that at leas! in the cedure in these cases. The more I ·look Burgess and Maclean·ca.sethe roam fault at the matter the more convinced I am was not the security, but in· the ordinary that the British system of law and tqe handling of the people involved. It cer- course of justice ·is extremely good, ~nd tainly surprised me thflt Maclean, as I once we get away from that and . mto understand it, ·was almost pressed to rather vague realms of suspici<?~iof aJle~ return to work in the Foreign Office after gations· whi<;-h~te. nor proved . and _o~ the incidents in Cairo. : • evidence which ·1s not produced, .we tnget irito 'difficulti<:5:•I. do ~ot · I ani surprised, th~refore, at .~e word; evitably deny that m,ustfac~ th~se d1ffict1lt!~s ing of paragraph· 10 of the White Pap~~• ortnat they;eptdblem· exists ;· ~f. course tt which· seems to in'.1.ply :that the- set1ous 0 ,.12~6fllonsolidatedFund,Bill:'-;- -21,MARCH.-1956 PublicServices(SecuntyJ.. 1-296 !-foes. But I suggest.that.w.e should .keep • applied? We ought to now.how the 'pro• .~e. proce9ureAown.to the minimum and ·cedur~ is .,being. handled, and I. should :to tibe really important ~ses. • ·: ., have thought that -it would be possibl~ I go further and .say tli~t such casds from 'time to time'. to •get. that type of ·ought to be· deaJt_with .Mlsticalfy espe• information, :_ • • , • • ' 'dally in th~ upper, _highergrades 'of' the I sympathi_severy ·much·with the Conpublic se_r".ice. • But I~agree.with the hon. ference which investigated these matters. ·and lear_nei,lMember for Hove (Mr. -But it 'has, -perhaps; been rather too imMarlowe) in thi-9kin:gthat in some cases pressed by the dangers of Communism as even in the higher grades-not .in .,a11 .such-, After· all, Communismis not illegal cases, but in some-.the evidence could in this country ; it is not a crime to be a ,be mac(e· mqre· generally available. •I Communist -in opinion: What is a crime .think the proc:edure, _:without being is to give information away to a foreign legalistic, could,'be fairer ·to those •in- Power. I am •not· sure that this point volved.. I1,1evitably,people . \\;)lo :come comes out sufficientlyclearly in the White under this sort of suspici<;msuffer,a·great P~per. Conimunj~m may, possibly lead deal though they may not be guilty. •It a :man in· that direction; but it is not in is extremely -difficultto safeguard them its.elf art offence. I~ is_important that against injustice. . , ;_.. . . this should be clearly stated in the House. I should like to feel mo.,recertain than •••'I have had inquiries adaressed to me, I do now: that when investigations take as 110 doubt have other .hon. ·Members -place, we are kept informed as to how as to whether a certatn man has had ·any the procedure is working ~and whether Communist affiliations. , If one feels ·that as much justice as possible ·and whether he has had C::ommunistaffiliations at one to. the people concerned. . • :· time or· another, or has taken an interest in Marxism •,or perhaps: Joined: a :Com- S.43 p:m.' -. :,, ••' _munist club, does one say, "Yes; ·he , Mr.-Raymond ~1'1'.er_(Barry): I am has •had,affiliations with Communism"? ,sure that hon. Members on both sides One knows full well that it may be mag- would tend to agree with the hon. M~mnified into something.much more serious, ber • for -:Orkney and Shetland (Mr. tha,n,was in fact the case. It '.is difficult Grimond):'thai: this'procedure should be .f◊r .the_. people supplying the :information ·kept as narrow as-possible and in a very l;ls well as. for those about whom it ..is liini,ted··sphere. I· would certainly •agfe6 supplied. .The more there_is a ·regular with the hon. ' Member - also that the and :11nder.stoo:d procedure, and the more c,;mduct·of Made.an ·'•in _particular was !hat it is •brought .into. the_,open. where scandalous. but I think 'the hon. Member 1t can.,be_understood, .the.better... :·.. • would' agr~e that it'~iigh:tperhaps be even . • •• • more •dangerous to· make this a kind of • Furthermore, there is. the eff~d on" a court ·of'inorals.' this is. an unfortunate man's.. family • and · relations. Even procedure even as•'fat ·as it goes. in dealt.hough they are quite' innocent, they are ing with matters of''public security, but almqst bound to suffer through inquiries if we,were to fotrodu:c:ethe extra element of this kind, for news gets about. ,: If a ·of -morality ·it-.would. be extended even man loses promotion. or is moved in his inore· dangerously._•. • work, everybody knows about it and apart from the effect on his character the Mr.. Grimond: I agree entirely. What whole fa,rnilyis bound 'to suffer also.. If •I_was, trying to say was that lot of the we are ·to -get drastic enough. action in Maclean trouble. should have been solved the serious case's, let us be sure that we in the or1inary pro<;:esses of the Depaitcatc~: only ih_eguilty. ment as a.'matter'of persoimelha~dling., - :.:As the right _hon.Member·for Grimsby Mr. Gower: I· certainly would not (Mr. Younger) said, what real~ matters disagree with that. • ·, is .how the procedure outlined in the . Last week-end, a' friend of mine White, Paper is to .be applied. Would it · remarked with reference to these matters l:le-possible· for the House to be given . that he ·was surprised at the concern, a report ·.as to th~ procedure and .prac. which had been expressed. He said that tice 'Yhich grows up in the Civil Service public servants are in a far stronger -yvhenthe rec~mmendations,of the Con-, position than one of his Qwn:employees, ferei;iceof. Pri:vy·Councillors come. to. be whom he coul_d:dismissevenif he did not a 26 a 31 26 H 30 000032 �Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur /'acces a tn orma ton _j ., .1297.. Consolfdpted Fund Bill-,- -21 .MARCH 1956 Pub1ic Services (Securit4,\ il:298 . [M:R.Gow,ER.] • . · .. ;:·. : . ·has, I' am ·sure,. already satisfied-himself ~like the look of,,his face or simply if. he that it would be extremely difficultto get .tho:qght the man was a .Communist.. Our a Bill through in this form. There slio,uld ,feeling is that the. State should be the be room for. reconsideration. In this best of all .employers and should set a 'tribunal, Wliyshould, there' not. be, a particularly high . example of employ~ 'limited righ~ o( representation by soiic;(inent. Furthermore, public servants tor or counsel?' There, is precedent for :usually , enjoy". stability of ;_erqploy- this, even where secrets of State are conment. It is the kind of employment cerned. It shoµld be by no means impos- • -which goes through their whole career. siple to allow a person or civil serv~~t I;or thes~ reason~ we have taken a· par- 'who is questioned as· to his mtegrity to t1cular view of the problem, aijd that is nave .the right to be represented· by an ·why we need tq examine very •_closely advocate. I hope ,th~t the need for this such a procedure as this. , kind of thing ,will be limited in time. I • nope 'too that if any slight amendment The wording in paragraph 15 of the of ,the kind· I have mentioned is possible, White Paper is the kind of thing I have ·,fullattentidn wiff be given to it. • •... in mind. It is the· sort of wording we do - · not want to see often in this country 5.47 p.m. . when it says: _ .•.. . Mr. Wedgwood Beno (Bristol,· South" to continue the practice of tilting the ·balance East): Like some. of my hon. Friends, in favour of offering greater protection to the I watched tµe. Home Secretary .dealing security of the State rather than in the direction last night .with questions sent him by of safeguarding the rights of the individual." people all over the country: Iµ the We reject that doctrine genersllly. It is ·questions I shall _pilt .to, him tonight, I one that we. can suffer only in extra- ,hope he will be ,able .to answer as ordinary circumstances. I disagree ~ith tharmingly and· .attractively as he did my hon. and ,gallant Friend the, Member then • ' for NOttirigham,·cel1tral (Lieut-Colonel ~ ..• Cordeaux). I thirik it "is our duty to place I:welcomethe spirit in which the House br more emphasis on the right of t}le has approached this problem. It is ·a indivi.dual•than ori the_.safety of the State, great tribute to the good sense and wisdom of hon. Members that we should be able except ·when that •safety is ·,obvio:uslya : to debate this matter without any sense of primary consideration. That may have excitement, quite· coolly and calmly_and been the case after the war, and perhaps ~t~llis, but both sides of this·House surely with due regard to the rights of indivih h h • • d" • • duals. I am also grateful that security . ope t at ,t ose con itlons w1ll.not always in this country has never become a matter ~btain. If there is at present an emphasis of party dispute: One •of. the. gravest upon the danger from. Commpn~sm,'there difficulties in the United States-it arose $.re patent reasons for it. It ·;s •feasible ihat at other times other groups would from the long period in opposition of the · • ·1 d Republican Party, looking desperately for represent a s1m1ar anger. .. . an issue-was that it did become a matter Examples of the doctrine to which I of.party dispute and was thus inflated and have referred-" tilting the balance" and inflamed until clear thinking on security paying more attention to the security of matters was made very difficult. . the State than to the individual-have • .1 b · fl d 1 ith the three happened before and generally,speaking . . w_ant. ne ,Y to .ea w . .. ' .• . main issues wluch seem to anse from the !hose ha~e not been the h~pp1e_st periods W,hitePaper. The first is the objective of 1n our history. The happiest times ~ave security. In most defence White Papers been when the balance has been tilted there is some kind of reference to what the ~he other way. When we_recall the great defence policy is designed to defend. It efforts that were made m th~ supreme is very unfortunate that the Government's emergency of the last war, part_1cu!a:lY to White ·Paper completely lacks any recogpreserve th~ freedom. of the 1_nd1V1dual,nition •of the dilemma which is inevitable even when 1t ~as ,a difficult thmg to ~o, when a free society tries to protect itself w~can rt;eogmse the dangers of pressing from subversion. That dilemma has been this doctrine too far today. dealt with by every hon. Member who ha~ · It is a pity that we are not considering spoken in the debate. We are all aware tonight a Bill which is subject to amend~ of it ; the natural liberal instincts of us ment. My right hon. and gallant Friend all set against the necessitiesof' protectio~. 1 • ;?6 H 32 . 1299 (.nsolidated Fund Bill-'- 21 MARCH 1956 Public Services (Security) . . 1300 Yet there is no mention· of that in the I believe it is a very common illusion to suppose that many spies become spies White Paper. • I fear· that a civil servant seeking to because of blackmail. I should like to defend himself before " the three wise know whether there are any examples at men " of the tribunal would find very aII in the knowledge of the Government • little in this, the· only published document due to that cause. ·The second question one. comes to is to· which he could refer, •which would support <him in his' claim that he. was that of the Communist Party member. , I only pursuing ..a normal independence of think that any Government considering thought. I regret that is the case, because security would be bound to regard a of course the real security of a free society Communist Party member as a person, in the present state of the world, unfit for lies in its freedom. obvious reasons to be entrusted with • Many· hon. Mernbers who thought in the past that. we could get greater security security information which was essential by tightening up the machinery ought to to the State. But the much wider issue, look at .the·Soviet Union, which, in my and the one in which I think there is sincere submission, with all its security most criticism of the Government, is the measures, is far less secure than we are question of Communist sympathisers. There is a very great differencebetween in this country. Our security in the long run rests on· the consent of the governed regarding. a man as unreliable because of ,to be governed. If we were ever to-try what he thinks and regarding him as to substitute enforced uniformity of unreliable because of what .he has done. thought that would •do the greatest pbs• My view is that, far from increasing the sible damage to our free. interests.· I security of the State, if we had a lot of therefore start by noting the lack of any police inquiries, a lot of dossiers and files . reference to this matter in the White designed to 'show what· men in the Civil Paper. Service have thought in the past or think Now we come to the second subject, now, we would be· likely to encourage not the objective we are trying to achiev~, such great caution on the part of those but the nature of the dang~r that ~s civil servants that their ca{lacity for free feared. The White .Paper lists three dan· thought and independent mquiry would harmed and, as a result, the gers. It lists, first, the man,with a charac- be serio1,1sly ter defect. Secondly,it lists the man who State would lose some of the benefit of is a. Communist and, thirdly, the man who th~ir services. .To take an exaggerateµ is a Communist sympathiser. I want to example, far from dismissingany member say straight away that I absolutely. agree of the Foreign 'Office wh9 had read Karl with hon.· Members who this afternoon M~rx, :my inclination would be to dismiss have said that character defects should anyone who had not read Karl Marx. . really find no place in a White Paper,on Mr. Ede (South Shielqs): 'Sack the lot. security. Mr. Benn : As my right hon. Friend .. I wanno ask the right hon. and gallant says, ,that would be a very drastic step Gentleman a perfectly .straight question on this, subject:· He may not be ·able to to take. Then we C!Jmeup against the answer now, but I hope he will not think question of character defect and the m:w it an improper . questipn. . Is there any living with-somebody who is supposed to known case of a. spy who has been a spy be a Communist.sympathiser. ,[Interrupsqlely because of ~lackmail..w~ich _was tion.] My hon. Friend forgets that if a made··pqssible ~Y his OWf\ cha_racter9-e• civil servant whose wife was a Communist fects? .. There. is an extremely mterestmg sympathiser left his ·wife· he might be report on: this. matter whic}i was pub- in trouble , on the .ground. of character lished in the .Unitecl States and quoted defect. I think · the answer to the by :Pean Acheson in 1:iisbook which really extremists ·on security is -ridicule. I ·hope deserves great and serlous study.. He that the sense of humour which is quo.tesMr.Seth Ricliardsqn, the Assistant supposed to· be one of_ our British Attqrney-Qener~l in the Hqover Adminis;- characteristics will always-preventus from tration and .chairman .of the .Loyalty becoming too absurd in our inquiries into .the views of civil,servants._ R:eview Board, who_.saiq: ; . " Not. one single , case or. evide~e directed Mr. Silverman: Not on the' basis of tpwards a .cas.eof \,'lSJJi9µage has been discloi;e,d ·this White.Paper.· in that record." • < 26 H 33 000033 �.. i30l ,ConsolidatedFunaBill___; 21 MAR:CH 1956 PublicServices(Securiolj i':302 • l\'lr~Benn :,My hon: Friend quite rightiy I put these points most sincerely to the says that the White Paper shows little • Government because I believe that, when trace of humour and, one may think, in the immediate pressures of the Communist some ways even less wisdom. We come world relax, sooner or later all •these to the third part of the problem. The praotices will have to be replaced by our safeguarding of the free society was the traditional practices. · first, and the seco_ndwas the dangers to I finish with a quotation from a man which we ar~ exposed. Now We come who was jointly responsitile for security to the methods to be employed by the measures in tJhe United States with Government in searching out security President Truman, Dean Acheson, a"very risks. It has already been pointed out, distinguished American and, I believe 'a a.nd l think it is worth re-emphasising, very great Amerkan Secretary· of ·state. that the loyalty boards are not designed He referred to the three Presidential in order to catch spies, but it is purely executive orders made in the years 1947, preventive work1950 and 1953 which were adopted to deal " Prevent us, 0 Lord; in all· our doings " with exactly ,tJhisproblem, and he devotes in its true sense is what the security board a great chapter to the problem in whioh is designed to do. Therefore; we are he finishes with these words : only undertaking all these inquiries to • "I was ari officer of that Administration ~nd expose certain people who might be share witll. it the. responsibility for what I am ·• · now convmced was a grave mistake and. a dangerous to us. failure to foresee consequences which were in• What ha1>pens.so far as one can make evitab_le. That responsibility canont be escaped out from hon. Members who have spoken, or obscured." • • and, we all have experience of this, is With. such an authority to support me, that the police make inquiries to find out I ask the Government to look again ·at all' about a man, all tllat is good, bad the White Paper before it becomes the and indifferent. That all goes down established practice of this coun~ry.. higgledy-piggledyinto the record1 depend• • · 5•59 p.iµ. . "n • d ;. f th · a h co · . , mg on ~ e JU gmen. 0 ' e m n w O m-. Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of piles the record. Lt is made availabl~ to the board which decides whether the Than et): I should like to take the opporman 1s suitable to be employed fur,ther tunity of touching on a few of the points ot not. Then we come to the stage when which have been made in the debate,-parthe man is informed of uhe decision, ahd ticularly about the procedure which has he· has an· opportunity of appealing . to been laid down. I do, nor wholly· agree "the three wise men." . Here I think with the· arguments which have been ad~ there are very grave defects in the dressed to the House that the Government machinery provided by the White Paper. have not provided adequate measures in this White Paper. • It is argued thaf one cannot have an accused person, interrogating witnesses Before I do that, however I want ·to because they might be doi,ng secret work deal with a matter which, I believe, is for the security forces. That migbt be also of very great importance and which true if a Communisit·is confronted with has not been referred to' so far. The non-Communist police spies. At such a terms of reference provided for !'he Corr, hearing the value of the police. agents ference of Privy Councillors were : would at once disappear. But if tJhey "To examine the security procedures ·now · d b h d applied in the public services and to. consider cannot be cross-examme Y t e accuse whether any further precautions are called for himself, is that any bar· to their being arid should be taken." • • cross-examined by someone acting for the I am most deeply concerned about the accused? We come back to the question personnel employed in our s~cret ser~ of the right of advocacy on behalf of vices at present. I believe thf.J,tif they are someone _wihois brought before the board. not very careful the Government will lose Secondly, it is said that we cannot.have now, or very· soon, some cif the best a public trial and, 1n most ,cas_es,me~ are intelligence men, foreigners and Englishnot charged but are hr.ought up on sus~ nien, employed in those ·services; and for picion. • Is there any re!!S-011 why a pri_vate this reason. Quite rightly, as a general trial should not be made more effective principle, the Civil .Service works not and more· in accord with judiciaj. pfo,:- riiuch on si.;ifabilitybut upon ·tlie stai,v:t· cedures which· we have in trhis country? ard of service which· has oeen S(;}t over - - ., ~o ~ BOl (.onsolidated Fund Bill- 21 MARCH 1956 Public Services (Security). . 13.04 years and by the precedents which ther~ I wish now to say why I support the by are retained in its traditions, White Paper, even paragraphs 15 and 16, It so happens that the men who are w~ich_b~vebeen so severely criticised, i employed upon security work may be thmk 1t ,1s'Yell kno;wn that _I have myself temporary civil servants not permament been assoe1a,~edv.:1tha wide range of civil servants. This work may be the recomme:ndat10~s.1n t~e rule of la~, 9.IJ only work they do, and they may come reforms m a~mm1strat1velaw and m tnfrom any country in the world. There b;-1nals?a;1d m ma:1y other matters a~sois real danger at the moment that in the c1aited_v.:1th the liberty of the subJ_ect. quite proper comb out of the Civil Service Wh)'. IS _it,.th~, that, broadly speakI1:g, in. order to· try to get rid of a certain I think 1:t1s nght to say that th~ s~cunty number in each Department for r.conomy of the Sta.te may mean. that ~ne Jeopar_reasons we may so purge ourselves as discs so;11eof the most _precious ~ss~ts to lose some of the most useful, men. of. the liberty of the subJect? It 1s for 1 • • this reason. In one of our intelligence services there are several men who are under notice to In the .Secret Service, in espionage and go within the next few months. One of in security work, it is well known· that, these is one of the greatest coding expert~ as distinct from a person who lias mere in rhe world. I need not say more than access to certain documents, man that, a 'i:nanwi,th remarkable knowledge employed takes, and understands that he of cip.he_rand codin_gwork, whos·e entire . takes, what may be described as the trade d risk that he will never in a court of law a 1,Jltlife has been devoted to intelligence or before an adequate ·tribunal be able work, and who has been working for the past ten years in the service of this coun- to explain his dismissal or. have it try, is a man w.hois irreplaceable.. When explained. He realises that. It is a risk I tell the House that. he is a temporary of his occupation. In ordinary circumcivil servant with a salary of only £SSO stances of employment, an employer, if he h H dismisses a man, has not to assign reasons a year t e ouse can see how easy -i,tis for the dismissal: none whatsoever. One to lose so1:1ebodyreally valuable: can employ an office·boy or a domestic ,.I turn to the question of the further servant or· a factory worker and may precautions which, I believe~ should be dismiss·him and give no reason. taken~ There are in this country and ,in There js no obligation as such upon the the Middle East a number of men with Civil .Service to state reasons for dJslife-long .'experience, aliens -and. English- .missal, . J _thjnk it is an admirable premen, who can be •of the- grea;test assist- cedent that it has so developed that, in ance to us at preselllt in strengthening fact, it does give reasons. It is admirable our security services in the Middle East. • that there is a tribunal to which dismissed I know none of those services, but I know that there are people, certainly the Turks, civil servants can go, and before which the reasons, such as they are,' can be and people of ot,her nations, who are stated. I agree with the argument made highly critical of the extent and scope of that if we set up a tribunal we should our security measures in that part of the by_all me.ansmake it effective. We must, world in the light of the upheavals that tl,1.erefore,give a right of representation have recently taken pla~e and are taking by .solicitor and counsel.· I must agree place there. with that. • I hope, therefore, that in considering · However; in security I am by no means these questions of security we shall apply sure there ought to have been any such this principle, that for this work suit- tribunal or any right given of represenability shall be the sole and supreme ,tes,t, tation or of reasons to be stated, for this and realise that we cannot take irito is really a question of the policy of the account questions of precedence and pro- Minister. If one is deciding between one motion·which apply to the normal grades ~PYand another, or upon the employment of the Civil Service ; and tltat we shall of one person or _another on a task of see that we do secure and retain suitable secret diplomacy, it is not really a riien 'in our security services, thus pro- question of whether he has given .so many tec~ing our interests and ensuring the years of service or not ; it is a question of qiamtenance of the great reputation our whether he is the most suitable person ~ritellige_nce serv~cesin ,t.liepast J1av~won. for the job. If ~·.man wants to take up a 26 H 35 . ' . 000034 I I �Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a l'informotian . .. 1305 ponsolidated Fund Bill-.. - 2LMARCH ,1956' Public Ser>?ices (Securit~ 1306 , [MR. Ri:;Es,-DAVIE$,] ... l worked_with 1?urgessfor-long.enough. employment of that sort, he must accept to , kno:w h,1shabits. ·Anyone -who had . all .the dangers associated with it, includ- . close contact with- .him could have jng the possible loss of employment. realise\:!.not only. his brilliant intellect but. I think it is important that' that vie\v the .:defectsof his conduct and behaviour: should be expressed in the House, even and could .have judged. how unreliable he although it is one I express with' great might ..become. in .certain circumstances.· misgivings. because of my own very Therefore, I say that there was a failure s~rong feelrngs a~out •the principle of the of the normal ,operation of judging people·. liberty of the mdividual and of fair on the part of superior officers. A weak- . !re~tment. A!l I am really saying is that ness in public administration is the failure 1t 1s a question of an understood· and ~f,members of one class to judge objecaccepted risk, and that .it is a matter tively and courageously members of the within the determination of the Minister same class. I should not be at all surprised if that was not the real explanation in charge. of what happened in this case. • This White Paper, of course, touches The truth is· that most of -this· trouble on_ly_the friage of the subject.. I hope Mm1sters gave. deep 1nd anxious thought , comes from. university graduates. It is' to ~he whole scope of our security not the humdrum civil servant with the ~ervrces. I hope they bore in mind the bowler hat and umbrella, who ca,tches the· unportance of seeing that the finest men 5.20 from Victoria, who is the unreliable and wo~en, not only English subjects civil servant. He is not the one for whom • but subJects of other countries who are this White Paper is published. It seems friendly disposed to us, are able to be that life in universities encourages riotous employed and to continue to be employed living-and love of social life and parties, s3:tisfactorily,a1;1~ judged not by the yard- and these people come into the Civil -Serstick of the Cml Sernice, on the basis vice infected with their • experiences as I hope that that is of _the length of •their employment; but undergraduates. entirely by their suitability individually neither ,preaching a class war nor being for the work which we wish them to do unfair to university-trained civil servants, for the security and benefit of our country. but the belief in the Civil Service is that all these people !lang, together, that they 6.8 p.m. , , do not let each other down, 1tndthat:they Mr. Douglas Houghton (Sowerby): The all gather round and shield their own close interest which has been taken on class from ,the critical ga,ze of those who both sides •of the House in this White might expect better of them. Paper, and also the anxieties expressed There is no doubt that a lower-grade on both sides of the House, lead me to civi'l servant stands much greater risk ·Of make a suggestion to the Home Secretary being bundled out for unsuitability or about future action. undesirable behaviour, than does a . This is <;ineof the concluding chapters member of the administrative class. m the affair of -Burgess and Maclean. I There is not the slightest doubt about did not seek to intervene in the earlier that, ~nd I speak from long experience debates on t,hem for two reasons. · One, i:n connection with the public sei::vice. in conduct and character are, of was that I had a representative post on Defects· course, important, not only in relation the Civil Service National Whitley Coun- to security risk but to suita:bility to be cil, and the second was that I worked in retained; in the public service. Certain close assodation with Burgess for three standards are required in tlhe• public years. I have always found it very -diffi- service and should be insisted upon, but. cult to believe a great deal of what was we have to be careful not to make the • said about him. I certainly wish to asso- cure worse than the disease. ciate myself with the comments made by Another weakness of administrati:oh is the hon. Member for Orkney and Shet- the speed winh which general conclusions land (Mr. Grimond), that the trouble are drawn from particular cases. I could about Burgess was not the failure of our give· many examples of how elaborate security arrangements but the failure of precautri.omshave •been taken in public his superior officers to judge him courage- administration to· close gaps or guard· ously and objectively on, his· behaviour. against weaknesses or difficulties· which 26 H 36 1307•· .,solidatedFu11dBill-'--' 21 MARCH ·t956· PublicServices(Security) . ~308 have· appeared only rarely· or even, .i,n One can understand that tbe •represensome cases, only ·once. In the White tatives of· the staffs of the Civil Service~ Pape.: there is scarcely a genera.Jisation feel themselves at'· a great disadvantage for .which a plausible defence cannot be , in• trying to reach agreement with the found. One might say, "Look at all Official Side of the National Whitley of them. Ye•s, that seems reasonable. Council on difficult matters of this kind The country must not be put in jeopardy. upon· wliicli it can be said, "The House The public se,rvice must be like Caesar's has 'decided, Parliament has approved wife," and so on. But when we come • the White Paper, and this is the frameto apply these thrngs we run into work within which our discussions and diffiouJ.tie:.s. •hope of agreement must take place." The Civil' Service is now being asked Criticism has been made of the existto accept new conditions which will ex~ ing procedure regarding the "three wise pose civil servants and thei'r personal men" and the ban on trade union or lives and associations to closer observa- legal representation on behalf of an tion and scrutiny.· It may not be so· accused officer. Reasons were given for difficult to impose new conditions when it at the time, but probably the House recruiting new people to the publtc ser- would wish to examine it afresh and vke. After all, those who apply to enter wish to' see all the new rules and reguthe .p11blicservice can expect to satisfy lations when they have gone through the all reasonable requirements and tests of machinery of the National Whitley their suitability and reliabilrty, but these Council'-.to discover whether the . House new principles will be applied· to serving can then recognise the ~pplication of the ci,vil servants.. We c~n all imagine what principles embodied iJJ.the White Paper we should feel like if we had been in of which we shall shortly be asked to an. occupation, trusted servants in a approve; responsible sphere of the public administration, if, i'n applying the new conditions Mr. S. Silverman : We are having a· laid down in the White Paper, offensive· general discussion of the White Paper tests and interrogations were to fo11ow: ,on the Third Reading of the Gonsolidated Fund Bill. . The House is being We should ask ourselves ·how para- given no opportunity at all, as far as graph 15 of the White Paper is to be I understand it, to express approval or applied. Does it mean k•nocking at the disapproval of the White Paper, except door and aski'ng to see our wives when individually. we are not at home and an interrogating Mr. H~ughton : I accept that that is officer saying, "I have come to find out the technical position, but certain conwhether you are a Communist sym- ·clusions will be drawn from the fact that pathiser. I know you will not want to the debate taken place. I agree discuss th•is on . the doorstep, so please that we musthas not get those conclusions may I come in."? Is the House going to wrong. stan<;lfor that?. I am trying to impress upon the House Throughout the White Paper we shall that the next step is the discussion of see difficulties of application. I suggest the new rules mentioned in paragraph 11 to- th~ Home Secretary that when the of the White Paper, which states: procedure mentioned in paragraph 17 of "The measures necessary to carry out these the' -White Paper has been completed, reoommenda•tions will involve alterations in the· result of •it should be published in existing procedures. These alterations will be notified to the staff associations concerned and another White Paper for the information an opportunity given for representation to be of hon. Members.. The difficulty about made before the alterations are promulgated White Papers aqd documents of this in full." kind is that the House parts with them, I am asking that the Home Secretary· having expressed doubts and anxieties should assure the House that when the and approval and satisfaction and vary- time comes for the promulgation of the ·ing opfnions about them, and then leaves new ·and more comprehensive regulations, it· to the National Whitley Council t9 they shall be published in a further work out the rules and regulations which. •White·Paper so that the House may see will give effect to what are then judged them and, if it sees fit, provide a further to, b~ the decisions of the House. • short period of . parliamentary time to 26 H 37 000035 �I Document disclosed una'!!'fme Access to lnformotion "Acr-Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur raccesjf /'information ,. - 1309 Consolidated Fuf!d Bill-c- 21 MARCH: 1956 .· [MR. HOUGHTON.] , • ,. discuss them. At the.;mpment, the Civil Service is in 'no_·position to .,offset :the general conditio'ns. which may be laid down by the 'Government-;with' some tacit consent, arid no more,-·of.theJiouse :.,-as a 'basis for neg9tiation and -.discussion on these ne;wregulations.. 'I hope -sincerely that this will prove· possible, because it would be a reassurance to the public service. • • I concJude by saying that I am sure that no one in this House, and, I hope no one outside, will think that he sees·in this White Paper a portrait of the Civil Service or a portrait of any but the rarest misfits and undesirables who have passed all the tests •and all the conditions for entering the public service: As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) said, in his remarkable eloquent maiden speech, the -House will wish, notwithstanding -the attention it is having ·10 give to the White Paper, ·to renew its confidence in the public service generally. The House will wish to assure the service that noth_ingwill be done which will-give undue offence to the public service in carrying out the recom• unendations .of the ·Conference on the further measures to be taken on security grounds. . • Public Services (Securi. 41310 , disappearanpe. of the two former .Foreign <)ffic,eofficials; • • • • It,is obvious from' many of.the spe~ch.~s today that m~ny hon.· Members· are ,of the opinion that there is to .be a::big departure from the policy· 'folloWed by successive Governments. "I •assure ·the House as sin~erely as possible' ,that there is .no departure from the policy which successive Governments have laid down. . Tµe impression· .con:vey~d :t9 me by m_ost·of the speeches during the debate on 7th November was that what really disturbed hon; Members. was a reai anxiety that there was a defect in our security system which was having serious effects. In other words, that Jhe menace ,threatening this country. was what I call the ideological traitor.·. I do no_tthink' I ain misinterpreting the impression _which that debate gave. . • • Indeed, it was because of the genei:~l feeling then that this inquiry w·as held. It was urged upon us by hon. Members in aU parts of the 'House that somephingwas radically wrong. • •That suggestion was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, -South (Mr. H. Morrison), and also by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) and by, the hon. Gentleman the· Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney). The 6.21 p.m. _impression made upon me at tlhe time was The Se~retary of Stat~ for the Home that the anxiety about security was upperDepartment and Minister for · Welsh most in the mind of hon. Members and Affairs (Major Gwilym .Lloyd-George): not the fear that we were riding roughWe have had an interesting debate and shod over the liberties of the people. To some valuable speeches. I wisli particu- put it another way, not that we were doing larly to add my congratulations to those too much but that we were doing too offered to the hon. Gentleman the Mem- little. The real worry was that we were ber for Walthamstow, West • (Mr. being too liµeral in our aP,proach to the Redhead) on what •everyone will agree problem. T1his was why we had. the was a thoughtful and informative maiden inquiry. speech. I echo the view of my hon. and The Conference included two •of my learned ,Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Marlowe) that we shall look forward right lion. Friends as well as myself; a to his interventions in future if they_are former Honie Secretary and my •rioble Friend, who is peculiarly ·concerned with of the standard which he offered today. certain aspects of securit:y. I hope I can I ~ould not help thinking, as• the hon. say,· whilst ·preserving due modesty, that' Gentleman was speaking, that the original the composition of the Conference was statement about security was made by his such tnat we might expect it· to inspire predecessor· in this House, the .present some confidence in this House. It was Earl Attlee. One thing which has -im• greatly strengthened by the addition of •pressed itself upon me during the debate the right hon. Gentlemaµ the M~mber for has been that it is a sequel to the one Lewisham, South, who is not only. a held on 7th November and that the White former Home. Secretary. but a.,.fonper Paper is a· sequel to the. one which, the Foreign Secretary, as well. In addition., then Fqreign Secretary-•presented. on the we had :the benefit of the n9ble Lqrd. 26 H 38. 000036 �Document 1scosed un er t e Access to rnforrrffifii5nlfcr• Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur /'acces /'information a ,:1311{jjj_11solldated -21·MARCH 1956 Services ·n12 -Earl Jowitt, and of.the.right hon. Gentle- Communists and, I· w0uld emphasise, ·man the -Memberfor Vauxhall {Mr.·G_..R. ··those associated:with.them_..:paragraph·15 .Strauss) wh9, in his former capacity, as -has come in for -some criticism, but I _Min}ster of_,Supply,_·had such· a·-wide • would emphasise "those associated with experience of· th:e problems with which .them "-are not employed: in the Civil the Coriferen<.ehad to deal. Service where they are in a position to get .: ·It Is obvious th.at we c~~ld not publi~h hold • of :secret information. Another the full Report. As my· right hon. Friend important point to be -remembered is .said in answer to a •question, we have "where they are in a position to get ho_ld p'ublished in the White ·Paper as much of secret information." That is a view as it is proper to do. I admit that it is which, I think, is accepted not only in this extremely difficult to •produce a White Hous_e_but by most people outside. ~Paper of .this .kind since it is undesirable · I remember an article in the Daily to disclose so-inuch of the· material, -but .Worker which followed the publication of -I hope it will give -satisfaction-to those the White Paper. The White Paper ·who, on 7th November, expressed doubts .brought- down the wrath of the Daily -as..to the secU:rity-services. • • W orker..,?What brough~-down that wrath · 'If is --true'•that·:,theConference''.recom- was not the threat to the rights of private mended cert~in' ·changes· which; ·were 'citizens, or the incursion into. the private ·designed to • ·strengthen our security 'lives of individuals. It was that, for con·systein. As the White ,Paper states; the ·venience. ancl brevity, we explained 'in Conference was satisfied· on -the general _paragraph 5 that the term" Communism" .issue.-that there w:as-·nothing orgartically was -used throughout the White Paper to .wrong with our secu~ity servi~es, and. I cover Communism and -Fascism alike. hope -that. this will allay .the anxiety of That is what really annoyed- the those.who have the -impressionthat th1<te l)aily Worker, but,:we were, of course. is something fundamentally unsound with right to use tha.t -term for brevity. the.system. -. • • . . I have thought it right to remind the On the suggestion that w~ are taking ·House of these two findings of the Coil.'much wider ·powers, may I point out .that .ference because, on the face of it, they •sev_era;I speakers·in the debate last Friday are a· complete answer 'to •most of the • suggested that, we should take far' wider points made in the d_ebatelast November. ·powers for detaining\ suspects than we They- have established that the policy have· at present · On that issue the Con- followecj.by successive Governments durfer~nce ·gave a· definite 'and authoritative iiig thiHast 'eight years .has been right and ·answer. :It r"ecommended strongly that -11iat'the procedtites•,to ·give effect to that there should be no amendment of the faw policy·are sound. • ! : ' • • • in ,that respect,· and with this I-am sure • Thei;e. has: bee~ ~ore ~m'.phasistoday _,thatthe whole House• will agree. 011 a'-rath,er diffe·rent point.,· P.reviously, ' There is' little doubt in any ·quarter of the· House· was f?r more· concerned as to :the House about the menace which we wliether we had got the security which we are s·eeki"ngto combat. However. it may ought to havidor the safety of the coun_bewell to ·remind hon. 'Members of what try .. Today, there h1>s)Jeen far greater the Conference said.. It upheld the view, emphasis-I am not complaining about first publicly stated: by 'Lord Attle~, in it ; .I a_m.Q.1erely statjng the fact-on the 1948, that qne of· _tpe main dangers to fact tnat we are_'apparel).tlYpaying too security is presented by the Communist little ·attention to the rights of the private whose faith' overri{leshis normal loyalties indivicfoal. ·Doubts have j:;een expressed ·to his comitry,_ and induces the. belief today about the justification for the re•that it is justifiable to ·hand over secret • comm¢ndations in • the White Paper information to the· party or to a Com- designed to strengthen the .present security -munist foreign.·Power. • As I .said just system. now, no departure·,at all has been made .·_ It is a very uridenitandable reaction to from. th~t.. . . . . ,. •,. . .· question the-need for measures, some of ' I hope, therefore; that· it· is ·common which are certainly. alien to our liberal ground,,that the·.Government ~re right in -traditions, anc;l for that re3:son adopted pursuing the policy adopted ·by·successiv:e -with considerable reluctance. However, Governments in.recent years of making.it I should like to make three points in reply one of their main objects to· ensure that to those who may still feel that such Fw1d.Bill,;;.;_ . Public (Security} . 26 H 39 000037 �I Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces,i:J/'information '1ft 1313 CimsolidatedFund Bill-:- 21 MARCH 1956 PublicServices (Secur(. • , :.> •1314 • [MAJORLLOYD-GEORGE.l • • ,_' .. The Conference had no• intention of '' "measures are unnecessary. First, however sugg~ting • thait anything short of .. tt:ie distasteful were the measures which sue.- fullest, possible investigation should be cessive Governments over the last few made in an.endeavour to resolve doubts years have bad to fake, we cannot sit or of dei1ying t~ a civil:ser-vant tq~ right back and do nothing while our security is and opportunity to state his case. It is imperilled .by a mena·ce, the existence of frequently very difficult to decide wh~ther which is accepted on all sides. . the S~te .is jusitified.in .trus,t,inga, man . Secondly, while some of our counter- with iits secrets. I can assure the House measures, it is true, are alien to our liberal -I say thjs with knowledge~that •the itraditions, so is the. menace which they very greatest care .is. taken at all. stages set out to circumvent. That is a point that to make a fair an9 honest appraisal of we must never forget. As my right hon. the facts. The problem· is sometimes to Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer judge the state of a man's mind now, or said in the November debate, Com- to judge how he would react to: a patmunism has set progress back three cen- ticular situation in the future.· •• • turies.. We are now, thanks to Communist . Nor can we afford to neglect the danger activities, back in •the age when a man of a man who, ;hi~self completely innowho holds this new creed thinks it loyal cent, constitutes a.risk; to security because, to be disloyal .and has no scruple about for,example, he h~s relatives behind the betraying his own country. We are, there- Iron Curtain. The right hon. Gentleman •fore, driven into adopt~ngsteps which we the Member for Vauxhall drew attention take only because of prot_ectingthe liberal to that kind of risk during•the ,debate on traditions that we in this country hold atomic energy in April, 1954. :I am sure dear. he was right and that we must treat Thirdly, while I do not for a moment l'_ersons. of that ch3racter as, security under-rate the hardship of those who, be- nsks. .• . cause they are-adjudged to ,be· the dupes I am equally certain that the Conof t:he Communis.t creed, are moved to ference of Privy Councillors·was right in Cltherwork or; if it is impossible to find enjoining us to watch the :risk to security non-secret work for them, Jose their which 'may be caused by the man under appointments in the Civil .Sei;vice, I the influence of a -close relative who is a should like to make one comment .on ~omrµunist. • In any such case, of coµrse, that. Hard as their lo:t.is, we can all we shall do our best to see that the man make a shrewd ,guess as to what their who has to be taken off s1::eret,work"gets lot would have ·been had. they been em- employment in some oth<erbranch of.the ployed in the Civil Service of a ·Com- Civil Service. . . munist Power, and it had been discovered The second general point.that I would that they belonged to or sympathised with make is that if must never be supposed a movement holding views about Com- that when we are dealing with cases of munism analogous to those which this kind, any more than when ·we ~r~ Communists hold about democrattc dealing with the other case to which the government. . • • • • Conference referred-the civil servant I do not propose to discuss the recom- with a serious character defect-we shall mendations of the Conference in detailwork to set rules:· The suggestions in the it would take a very long lime to do White Paper are purely examples of the so-but I think the House would wish sort of defects which might be looked me to deal with one general point. The at, and, of course, it is vitally important White Paper says, on the one hand, that that that should be known. The hon. it is sometime,s necessary to refuse to Member for Bristol, South~East (Mr. employ a man on secr~t duties bec,ause, Benn) asked me whether I had ever after the fullest investigation, doubts known of a spy who had become· one about his reliability remain, and, on the because of character defects. other, t)lat in deciding borderline cases it-is right to continue the practice-I say Mr. Benn : Nd, because of blackmail. "to continue the practice" deliberatelyMajor Lloyd-George: I am sorry ; I of tilting the balance in favour of offering have not got an example of one:of·those, greater protection to the •security of t·he ·.but I. could tell the hon .. Member of State rather than in the direction·of ·safe- ;quite a )lumber. who came to· serious guarding the ri!§hts of the individual. trouble because of very serious defects, /,16H !10 000038 �ocument 1scose un er e ccess o Do_cumentdivulgue en vertu de lo Loi sur /'occes a /'information 1315' .solidatedFund Bill- 2f'MARCH 1956 Public Services (Set11rity)' , .1316 though I have not got a case of black- May I say, further, that there-is no danger :mail in mind at the moment. • I could in this country of witch-hunting for the' not give an example bf blackmail with.:. sake of· witch-hunting. It is obvious, of out some research;but for people coming course, that there is a great deal of to what I •inight call a " sticky end " information which cannot in any circumbecause of character defects, I could give stances be disclosed : every hon. Gentlea number of examples. It is a well- man in • every part of the House known fact that many of the finest spies appreciates that. • were chosen because they were the type Most of the attack on our security of person who might encourage character services has not been that they were too defects, if I may put it that way. • severe, but that they were ·not severe Therefore, ·character· defects of one enough. -The effect of the debate on 7th for:m ·or another are of tremendous • November was not to criticise the security importance.. I am not _saying that services b"ecause of the ghastly methods spying and blackmail necessarily. go they used, but to suggest they were not together ; there ca:n be the blackmailing really strong enough. of a person who was not exactly a spy. The right hon. Gentleman the Member fo any case, it is a •danger, though only for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) asked for one' of· the many dangers which· are some figures about purging. • I have the obvious weaknesses, •I should. have figures for the last five years. The total thought, in • any system of sec:urity. of those purged was 62. Of those; nine Furthermore, I am certain that still the were in the •higher executive or higher best protection we can give to the indi- ranks, and· 53 were in the lower ranks. vidtial is to contiriue to rely upon the That is a total of 62' out of a nonresolve :of Ministers to consider these industrial figure of -650,000 • and an cases 6n their inerits and to reach in each industrial figure of 400,000. case the best judgment which.it is possible I do ·not think that those results bear for a htiman bein_gto reach. .. . out any attack on the Civil Service. I Questions have been asked of me am very happy, ·as Wf! all are, to endorse today about the terms of reference what has been said today about the Civil mentioned in paragraph 16 of tb,e White Service, and I feel that those figures give Paper .. _It i_s_important to remember that_ some indication of the position. On the in this particular case,. as in_ so many, whole, there is no laxness in the security th_estaff side. would be involved°and con- services, but it could not possibly ·be· imitation, :will have to take place with ,held. against them that the security services them. As soon as this has been cione; were making life intolerable for many the House will be informed. I do want people. I think those figures prove that •. to make t_his•perfectly clear: it is not The White Paper, has, in· my submisaltogether • against the interests of the sion, •• esiabiished three -·propositions : individual involved when the powers and first, that our 'policy - o_f regarding the terms of reference are extended; because Communist. and Comimuiist sympathiser it may enable far more information about as· a menace to our security is the right a particular person to be bbtained which policy for any Government to follow ; could •well be to his ·advantage. It does . secondly',· that our existing· procedures !:1Ptrtec_~ssarily• work one \Vay. In:.any are fundainentally' sound; thirdly, ·that in c;ase, it ':"ill q~the subject of discussions following our • policy and in applying· with 'the :staff side, and then the House our_ procedures it •is right _that the will 'be informed. ,• • Government should continue, as they mean to· ·do, within the limits imposed· Thirdly,_ I. would _li¼:e t9 emphasise thai by this new menace to our· national way. the grea,test carn_is taken in_investigating of life; to 'pay due· regard to the position all cases of sm;pects,, .J assure the House of ·the individual. ' that an adverse decision -is not reached • I submit that with these propositions· excypt after the most. ca~eful ·,eva1u_ation established, on the findings of this very of all ·considerations-·telling in' favourresponsible bbdy, and with 'the assur• this is very important:...c..tellingin:·favour ance that the Government intend· to do of as well'as against the suspected person·: an·that they· cart 'to prevent their policies Speaking with ·knowledge, may I say that arid procedures impinging -unfairly on: J.,ha:vethe greatest' confidenc·ein the· skill human" rights, the House can· rest ·content' arid: expetiertce of 01.ir • s~ciuity· services; with.'the firtdirtgsof the inquiry. ' • •. 0 26 H 41 000039 \ �• Ogcument disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces"'1/'information ...., J 317 , Consolidated Fund Bill- 21 MARCH 1956 POLIC.E FORCES (PAY) 6.46 p.m. Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, SouthEast) : Before we give a Third Reading to the Consolidated Fund Bill, I wish to draw the attention of the House to a matter ·which concerns the police service, and to ask the House whether they will consider that the case I • wish to make does not require further consideration by the Home Secretary. • • • I should like to preface my recital of the facts by saying that I have no desire at all to bring this matter before the House of Commons. In my view, all matters concerning pay and conditions of service in the police forces should be settled through the normal negotiating machinery which bas recently been set up for them. It is the intention of the police themselves that they should settle these matters through those channels. I have been asked, however, to raise this matter this evening because the police feel that the proper channel of negotiation on this question of police pay has been blocked and that, accordingly, their only recourse is to bring the matter to the House. The House will know that there was an increase in pay conceded to the police service following the arbitration tribunal award of December last. The Home Secretary brought in regulations on 16th December to give effect to ,that award. I ought to say that the arbitrators doubled the offer which had been made by the official side of the negotiations, an offer which had properly. been rejected by t·he staff side ; and, clearly, the view of the staff side was supported by the arbitration tribunal. ·• That last factor, if I may say so, is a count in this particular complaint, that at no stage have the negotiations been conducted in accordance with- modern ideas of negotiation which should have infiLtra-tedthrough ,the mind even of the Home Office in 1955 and 1956. We -regret very much that we had to go to arbitration. We were delighted with the :,;esult, because we thought ,that it did justice to the police service. During the course of the hearing, it became clear that although this claim on behalf of the· police bad been put in in Jtine,. the hearing was taking place in ,26 H !'I~ Police Forces (Pay). 1.. • i318 November, and the arbitratots' awa.rd was to be made in December, the police could· noit have their claim back-dated earlier than to the date on whioh the Home Secretary made his regulations· tihat is to say, 16th December. ' It was a remarkable tihing-indeed, a very rare thing in my experience-that the official side at the hearing, contesting the claim of the police, expressed sym• pathy with tthe point of view, put forward on behalf of the staff side, that there should be a measure of resJ:.rospectionfor any new scales which the arbitrators might award. In fact, a date was· mentioned by the official ·side during the course of the hearing. The official side spokesman said in the arbitration court· that his side thought tha:t any new scales which were awarded should take effect from 81lh September. Because of tihe delay in getting the arbitration _ and making the regulations, the new scales did not take effect u.ntil 16th December. In their award the arbitiators refe~red to this matter-they were independent arbitrators appointed by the Home Secretary-and said: • •~: ' " T~e Official side, however, expressed their syrnpat,hy (which we share)"• that is, the arbitrators" to~ards some m~s'ure of retrospective opera:. tion being given to any increase of pay awarded, although they did not concede •that 1Hh June, 1955, was the agreed date, even if retrospection was legally l:'ermissible." . We are, therefore, faced· with. the position .that after a long struggle . the police were awarded scales of pay by arbitration far better than the official side was prepared to give. The police got the award after a delay of many. months, after a statement by the official side that it thought that the delay was of &ucha nature· that the scale should be backdated, after the arbitrators themselvessaid that in their view there might be some measure of retrospection-at any rate. that they had sympathy with it, I do not want to put the case too high. Nevertheless;we are faced with a situation today in which these scales of pay have been fixed by reference to 16th December, and everything before that date has been completely ignored. I understand that in the Consolidated Fund Bill the Home Secretary could have made provision· for money which would have met this retrospective claim. • I want to • 000040 "' �Document d/Sc/osed under meAccess f8lfl}OffTIUl)Jil kl Document divufgue en vertu de fa Loi sur /'acces a /'information .. Fund Bill21 MARCH 1956 Police Forces (Pay) 1320 know w y the Home Office has not made introduced this machinery,, the Home provision for retrospective pay for the Secretary really ought to take the police police force which, on all sides, has been into his confidence and explain why it is conceded as justified; and I think that 1 not possible to do this. We hold the have maµe my case about that. view that it is possible to do it· in, the We saw the Home Secretary, who re- Consolidated Fund Bill, which ·presents ceived us very courteously indeed, and the very opportunity for meeting this parwho expressed sympathy with our case. ticular claim. He was not the first Home Secretary to We therefore put two considerations to do so. ·Three years ago the then Home the Home Secretary. First, why has it not Secretary, formerly Sir David Maxwell been possible to meet this claim when Fyfe and now Lord Kilmuir, told the the Home Secretary has at his disposal Police Federation that he, too, was sym- the machinery of the Consolidated Fund pathetic about the defect in the Police Bill? Secondly; wiU the Home Secretary Act, 1919, which makes it impossible for ask his officers to conduct future negoretrospection to be given earlier than the tiafions as though they were negotiations operative date. Three years have gone and not just statements handed down by, and although I ·am told that through from on high. When reasonable cases Lord Kilmuir the Government at that are put forward, people expect reasonable time promised to introduce legislation, ~rguments in return. no legislation has been produced. In We now propose to take the matter consequence this situation has arisen. We further. We intend to ask the independent went to the Home Secretary-arbitrators to consider this particular Sir Ian Fraser (Morecambe and Lons- dispute. Can we have an assurance from dale): When the hon. Member says the Home Secretary that if, in their tum, the arbitrators translate the sympathy "we," who are "we"? • they expressed into positive recomrnenda• Mr. Callaghan : I thought I had made tion. for which we shall now ask, he will, tb~t clear at the beginning of my speech. in the next Consolidated Fund Bill, which I am speaking on . behalf of the. Police will come forward in Ju]y, ask for the Federation, whose consultant I am in sum of money required to meet any .claim these matters. I have made that clear COilCededby the arbitrators? on previous occasions. I think that the That is the case which I have put position /is well known to the Home shortly and succinctly,. There is very Office. much more I should like to say. It is The present Home Secretary listened known to all my hon. Friends that in to us for about an hour. We put our all industrial negotiations, back-dating is case, against which no argument was conceded. Only a few classes, teachers, , produced. The response to that con- members of fire brigades, the police,. and sidered case was a letter from an under- a few others do not benefit from retrosecretary in the Home Office which was spection. The Police Federation asks dated 9th March> 1956. The substance that these facts should be made known to the House and that the obscurantism was this: of the Home Office can be made known "The Secretary of State has carefully conso that hon. Members can form their sidered the view expressed by the deputation, but he has reached the conclusion that it woulo own judgment. not be possible to give retrospective effect to 6.59 p.m. the December award." The Joint Under-Secretary of State for That was all we got. the Home Department (Mr. W. F. There wasno attempt to argue the Deedes) : While by no means accepting case, no attempt to say that the represen- the latter part of the remarks of the hon. tations would be considered, or that they Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. could not be considered because of a, b, Callaghan), I agree that the case resolves c,. d, or e, no attempt to say that we itself into two issues, whether the pay should have made the case in another award to federated ranks of the police way. There was a blank standing on service on 15th December could, by authority which made a mockery of nego- regulation or any other means, be made tiations. There is a very strong feeling retrospective, and; whether provision to in the. Police Federation that, having make such pay awards retrospective is 1319' !nsolidated ' ' 26 H 43 000041 �----------------------z:oio'ocaummieennttidTi',is;cclioosSEe0duumnd1f.e~r tile Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Lai sur /'acce!flti /'information ".;-.;:,'I 1.321 .Consolidated Fund Bill--:. (MR. DEE[;?ES.] 21 MARCH 1956 • desirable and our intentions on any such legislation as might be needed. It is generally accepted, and I think that the hon. Member will concede it~ . that retrospection cannot properly b'e given by means of regulations. That has been done in the past in very isolated instances, but it has become the Government's view, and it was also the view of our predecessors, that Statutory Instruments should not be made · with retrospective effect without expressed statutory provision. That being so, alternatives have been canvassed. The most significant was .the proposal of the hon. Member himst;lf to give retrospective effect to the December award by the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate in advance of legislation. That is an issue which has been very thoroughly explored and I want to mention only one difficulty, but a particular one, about implementing it. Such a Supplementary Estimate could cover only the Exchequer share of the retrospeptive payment. It would not meet the problem of empowering police authorities to make the payment. I will not elaborate that point. Use of Section 228 of the Local Government Act, _1933.to •Police Forces (Pay)'.- • •• :322 indemnify police authorities would not meet the case. Mr. Callaghan: If that is the case, why cannot there be adopted the procedure which is used for chief constables who get back pay because their own salaries are not covered by regulation, and in respect of whom the Home Secretary sends a circular to local authorities asking and advising them to make appropriate provision for those cases? Mr. Deedes: It is done by omitting specific awards from regulations, but that could hardly be done generally for all ranks .in the police. . On the occasion to which ·the hon. Member has referred, my riglit hon·. and gallant Friend said that this was a matter affecting . a much wider field than the police and the Home Office and he would have to consult his colleagues. . He is doing that and we hope that that may lead to-It being Seven o'clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, under Standing Order No. 1 (Time for taking Private Business),.further Proceeding stood postponed. 26 H H 000042 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CDMB00028 Title A name given to the resource Office of the High Commissioner for Canada, London to USSEA, Report on the Conference of Privy Councillors on Security, 29 March 1956 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 29-Mar-56 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived LAC RG25/R219 2017-0440-5 Box 11 File 7-5-Burg Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Library and Archives Canada Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Canadian Crown Subject The topic of the resource MacLean/Burgess Description An account of the resource A-2023-02971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Canada Declassified Type The nature or genre of the resource Access to Information Request Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English