https://declassified.library.utoronto.ca/files/original/d4d4da63b3fc1a968cd12284e89a5d90.pdf c206584f1e89c8a5b7f658ae2985e3c5 PDF Text Text Bocument.disclosed under the Access to Information Act Do^i^^^^lgi^en vertu de la Lo^ sur l'acces a /'information omemasaicina fakr-ruT DiVa L‘ Glassification downgraded to.S2C2ZT-Authority:mzmo of iay/13/66.4422 2o.22U/E/s-9-/ T 2 2 / ' FM CANDEL SAIGON AUG15/64/ SEC BACON NO RPT NO DISTRI ITO TO EXTERNAL 419 OPIMMED CTO BE DELIVERED IMMEDIATELY TO ARNOLD . SMITH AND FAREAST DIV) . TT VASHDC DE OTT REF YOURTEL Y5 93 AUGB AND VASHDC TEL 2872 AUG8 NORTIVIETNAM VASHDC REFTEL REACHED ME SUN EVENING, AUG9.ON ARRIVAL HANOI AUG1 I REQUESTED PAVN LIAISON MISSION TO ARRANGE INTERVIEW WITH Pl OR . SOMEONE THOROUGHLY CONVERSANT WITH MY CONVERSATION WITH PM MID- JUN .ON EVENING OF AUG 12 I WAS TOLD I COULD HAVE APPOINTMENT av AFTERNOON OF AUG 14 WHICH WOULD HAVE MEANT MISSING ICC AIRCRAFT AND CATCHING NEXT FLIGHT DOWN AUG18,WITH DELAY PROBABLY ENCOUR- AGING UNFORTUNATE SPECULATION HERE.ON MY URGING,PM MANAGED TO GIVE ■ ME APPOINTMENT AFTERNOON AUG 13. 2.AFTER BRIEF PRELIMINARIES AND THANKS FOR RECEIVING ME ON SHORT NOTICE (THIS TIME COLONEL MAI LAM OF. LIAISON MISSION AND A NOTE-TAKER WERE PRESENT),! CONVEYED TO PM VIRTUALLY VERBATIM TRANSLATION IN FRENCH OF CONTENTS OF USA MSG DOWN TO AND INCLUDING POINT C IN PARA-9.1 HAD MSG BEFORE ME TO BE SURE NO RPT NO POINTS VERE OMITTED OR INCORRECTLY CONVEYED . " 3.AS TRANSLATION PROCEEDED,! COULD SEE THAT PM PHAM VAN DONG . WHO USUALLY MAINTAINS EQUABLE AND EVEN AFFABLE EXTERIORCME DID SO DURING CONVEYANCE OF FIRST MSG)WASBECOMING VERY ANGRY IN- . DEED.AS I FINISHED,! SAID I REGRETTED THAT VHAT I HAD JUST SAID VAS NOT RPT NOT VERY PLEASANT FOR HIM TO HEAR BUT I HOPED HE WOULD UNDERSTAND TIAT I VAS CA OUT FAITHFULLY NY INSTRUC- >2 000194 �Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a i'information | PAGE TWO 419 TIONS TO CONVEY A SPECIFIC MSG.APPARENTLY CONTROLLING HIMSELF WITH DIFFICULTY, HE SAID THAT EVEN TO DELIVER SUCH A MSG TO A PM WAS NOT RPI NOT VERY POL ITE, THAT TIE MSG DID NOT RPT NOT MERIT BEING LISTENED TO AND THAT ME WOULD NOT RPT NOT THINK TO REPLY TO QUOTE THESE LIES UNQUOTE FOR A MOMENT,I FEARED HE WOULD END THE MTG TIEN AND THERE AND SHOW ME TIE DOOR.I INTERVENED QUICKLY TO SAY THAT JOB OF INTERMEDIARY WAS OFTEN A THANKLESS ONE BUT THAT I HOPED DESPITE HIS DISPLEASURE HE WOULD GIVE HE SONE RESPONSE; SONE REACTION WHICH I WOULD PROMISE TO CONVEY FAITHFULLY TO USA GOVT. 4. CALM ING DOWN A LITTLE, PM TIEN PROCEEDED TO MAKE STATEMENT WHICH I SHALL SEND SEPARATELY IN CLOSE TO VERBATIM FORM.CHIEF POINTS ARE AS FOLLOWS: CA) (GRP CORRUPDOF CRISIS ARE AS GIVEN IN DRVN OFFICIAL STATEMENT S.(B)BASIC ABUSE OF USA ACT OF AGGRESSION IS NECESSITY TO SEEK WAY OUT OF IMPASSE IN SOUTH BY CARRYING WAR TO NORI H.T1HS (FACT? )AND REQUIREMENTS OF ELECTORAL CAMPAIGN ARE CONTINUING FACTORS AND THEREFORE USA WILL QUITE PR OS IDLY. BE LED TO NEW ACTS OF AGGRESSION. CC) SITUATION REMAINS VERY DANGEROUS.DRVN HAVE TRIED FOR PEACE IN AREA BUT USA DO NOT RPT NOT WISH IT AND IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE ACT OF WAR HAS BEEN MADE ON DRVN. (D) IF WAR COMES'DRVN (AND?)VIETNAMESE PEOPLE WILL FIGHT DEFENSIVE AND PATRIOTIC WAR IN LEGITIMATE DEFENCE VE ARE NOT RPT NOT ALONE.OTHER SOCIALIST COUNTRIES WILL COME TO OUR AID AS I KHRUSHCHEVS STATEMENT AND CHINESE GOVTS STATEMENT SHOW.(E)IF USA ...3 000195 �Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a I'information PAGE TYREE 419 IS THINKING, OF NEW KOREA WAR IT. SHOULD KNOW. CONDITIONS ARE NOT RPT NOT THE SAME .KOREA IS PEN IN SULA AND FURTHERMORE QUOTE TIMES HAVE CHANGED UN QUOTE. IF WAR COMES TO DRVN IT WILL COME TO WHOLE OF SOUTHEAST'ASIA WITH UNFORESEEABLE CONSEQUENCES.MORE USA SPREADS WAR GREATER WILL BE IS ULTIMATE DEFEAT. CF) SITUATION WAS , ALREADY SERIOUS BEFORE AUG5, IT IS WORSE NOW AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT IT NOT RPT NOT- GET WORSE ST ILL. ICC SHOULD MAKE EFFORT TO STABILIZE SITUATION AND SEEK SOLUTION BASED. ON GENEVA AGREE■ . . ' 1. . ■ KENT.ICC MUST PLAY MORE.IMPORTANT ROLE. 5.PM CLOSED DY SAYING N WAS SORRY FOR .HARSH WORDS HE HAD SPOKEN .BUT HE WAS OBLIGED TO SAY THEH.I ASKED IF HE WOULD. PERMIT KE TO RPT A FEW-PERSONAL WORDS AND HE AGREED. 6.1 REPEATED FIRST THAT INTERMED IARYS ROLE WAS OFTEN THANKLESS NNE. BEFORE COMING, TO INDOCHINA I HAD REALIZED AS HAD CDN GOVT o • . ■ - THAT ACCEPTANCE OF SPECIAL MISSION ON BEHALF OF USA COULD LEAD TO AT LEAST APPARENT CONFLICT WITH MY OFFICIAL MISSION AS HEAD OF CDN DEL TO ICC.BUT WE-THOUGHT IMPORTANCE OF HAVING CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION -BETWEEN USA AND DRVN HO GREAT THAT THIS RISK SHOULD EE TAKEN.I PERSONALLY REGRETTED .HAVING TO CONVEY UNPALATABLE MSGS BACK AND FORTH AND HOPED ONE DAY TO BE ABLE TO CONVEY MORE PALATABLE ONES. BUT TMAT DAY WAS NOT RPT NOT YET AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHETHER HE PHAM VAN DONG FOUND EXISTENCE OF THIS LINK USEFUL DESPITE TENOR OF MSGS.HE REPLIED WITHOUT HESITATION AND WITH APPARENT SINCERITY THAT IE DID INDEED FIND IT USEFUL AND HE •• e4 000196 �Document disclosed'under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a I'information PAGE FOUR 419 WANTED CHANNEL TO EE KEPT OPEN o I THANXED HIM AND SAID THAT IF THAT WERE NOT RPT NOT THE CASE THEN HERE WOULD BE NO RPT NO POINT IN MY TRYING TO CONTINUE TIE SPECIAL MISSION. To SECONDLY 9I SAID THAT I WAS PROFOUNDLY CONVINCED THAT USA DID NOT RPT NOT WANT AND DID NOT RPT NOT SEEK WIDER WAR.CAUSES OF TENSION MIGHT CONTINUE FOR SOME T IME DANGEROUS SITUATIONS COULD ARISE AGAIN,BUZ THIS CENTRAL FACT SHOULD BE XEPT IN MIND.I COULD SEE NO RPT NO POINT AT THIS INTERVIEW IN DISPUTING PRECISE POINTS IN DRVN AND USA VERSIONS OF RECENT CRISIS,BUT I HOPED HE WOULD BE ABLE TO BELIEVE ME ON USA INTENT IONS.PH MERELY REPLIED THAT HE HOPED I WAS RIGHT. 8.MTG CLOSED WITH MUTUAL EXPRESSION OF HOPE THAT NEXT MTG WOULD TAKE PLACE IN CALMER ATMOSPHERE. 9.1 DID NOT RPT NOT CONVEY POINTS D AND E OF PARA9 IN USA MSG, o IN PART BECAUSE OF REASONS IN YOURTEL Y666 OF AUG 12 WHICH I SAW UPON RETURN FROM HANOI BUT EVEN MORESO BECAUSE I FEARED THESE FINAL TWO POINTS IF PUT TO PHAM VAN DONG IN HIS PRESENT MODD COULD HAVE JEOPARDIZED ANY CHANCE I HAD OF KEEPING DIALOGUE OPEN AND ANY CHANCE OF CONVEYING VIRTUALLY SAME POINTS DURING MID-JUN CONVERSATION. 10. IN SUBSEQUENT TEL I SHALL COMMENT TENTATIVELY ON MTG WITH FM AND ATMOSPHERE IN HANOI SEABORN 000197 �r Document disclosed under the Access to information Act Document divul^ue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a /'information r APPENDIX 13 I r S 7 Classification do:graded to Sze20TAuthority ioo of 127/13/68 524 /Cf i -0 > 22 . FM CANDEL SAIGON . AUG17/64 SEC BACON NO RPT NO DISTRIBUTION TO EXTERNAL 426 IMMED (Fo r Imme d ia t e d e l iv e r y ARNOLD s m it h to INF 0 TT WASHDC DE OTT and FAREASTDEV)— 0-22-101675-2-/ REF OURTEL 419 AUG15 33 NORTHVIETNAM PHAM VAN DONGS ANGRY REACTION TO LATEST USA MSG IS NOT RPT NOT SUR- , PRISING.ITS WORDING WAS BLUNT,AS BEFITS INCIDENTS IN QUESTION;BUT NO RPT NO PM COULD BE EXPECTED TO BE GIVEN TO HIS FACE THE LIE DIRECT TO HIS GOVTS RECENT OFFICIAL DECLARATION AND NOT RPT NOT REACT STRONGLY.ALSO TO BE KEPT IN MIND IS SHOCK OR AT LEAST CHAGRIN WHICH DRVN LEADERS MUST HAVE FELT OVER AERIAL ATTACK,LOSS OF FACE OVER FAILURE TO INFLICT ANY,DAMAGE ON USA NAVAL VESSELS AND TENSION UNDER WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN LIVING NOT RPT NOT KNOWING, WHETHER AUG5 ATTACK WAS PRECURSOR TO FURTHER AND MORE SERIOUS AERIAL ATTACKS. 2.AFTER VISIT TO HANOI AND INTERVIEW WITH PM I AM STILL LITTLE WISER AS TO DRVN MOTIVATIONS IN LAUNCHING AUG2 AND AUG4 ATTACKS ON USA VESSELS. BECAUSE THEY HAVE HAD TO TELL OWN PEOPLE AND WORLD THAT THEY . WERE OBJECT OF USA AGGRESSION,LEADERS HAVE EITHER BEGUN TO ■ ' BELIEVE IT THEMSELVES OR AT LEAST ARE GOING TO SPEAK AND ACT AS IF THEY BELIEVED IT.THEY MAY ALSO BELIEVE,DESPITE PRESIDENT J GHNSONS REASSURANCES, THAT THERE IS CHANCE OF NEW USA ATTACK. EVEN IF THEY DO NOT RPT NOT PROVOKE IT. AGAIN, THEY ARE . AT LEAST ACTING AS IF THIS WERE THEIR ESTIMATE AND ARE TAKING VARIOUS PRECAUTIONARY MEASURESCAIR RAID DRILLS,SLIT TRENCHES,BRICK . BUNKERS,ETC.AND REPORTEDLY'AT LEAST PREPARATION FOR EVACUATION OF . WGEN AND CHILDREN). 2 000198 �Document disclosed under the Access to Information Act Document divulgue en vertu de la Loi sur l'acces a I'information PAGE TWO 426 3. IT CAN BE ARGUED THAT HUE, ANDCCRYT)RZ CONTINUED THREAT AND USA OVERFLIGNTS IS NO RPT NO MORE THAN ATTEMPT TO SQUEEZE LAST BIT OF PROPAGANDA VALUE OUT OF ATTACKS AT HOME AND ABROAD AND LAST BIT OF EXTRA WORK OUT OF ALREADY HARD-PRESSED POPULATION.CERTAINLY SLOGANS SURROUNDING DAILY DEMONSTRATIONS AND MARCHES IN STREETS OF HANOI EMPHASIZED NEED TO WORK HARDER FOR FATHERLAND IN PRESENT SITUATION IN ADDITION TO CONDEMNATION OF USA IMPERIALISTS AND DEFENCE OF CCNTRY.HY PERNREP HANOI THINKS AUG5 ATTACKS ALONE WITHOUT FURTHER INCIDENTS ARE SUFFICIENT TO KEEP PRESENT RATE OF TRENCH DIGGING AND MARCHING IN STREETS GOING FOR A GOOD THREE WEEKS. 4.PHAM VAN DONG GAVE NO RPT NO INDICATION OF BEING WORRIED BY FIRM NESS OF USA MSG I DELIVERED AND IN FACT ITS IMMEDIATE EFFECT WAS TO PRODUCE ANGER RATHER THAN DESIRE TO DISCUSS WAY OUT. BUT I FIND IT MILDLY ENCOURAGING THAT HE DID CALM DOWN AS HE TALKED FURTHER AND SIGNIFICANT THAT(HE?) SHOULD STATE UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT HE WANTED TO KEEP OPEN DRVN-USA CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION. I DO NOT RPT NOT HOWe EVER AS RESULT OF THIS INTERVIEW SEE LIKELIHOOD OF HIS USING IT FOR SCE TIME AT LEAST TO PUT FORWARD TO USA SIDE PROPOSAL OR REQUESTS FOR DISCUSSION. I THINK HE IS GENUINELY CONVINCED THAT THINGS ARE BOUND TO GO HIS WAY IN INDOCHINA AND THAT THERE IS THEREFORE NO RPT NO NEED TO SEEK COMPROMISES. 5.1 HAVE NOW PUT JACKSON COMPLETELY IN PICTURE RE MY SPECIAL MISSION AND HAVE SO INFORMED COL MAI LAM. I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN JACKSONS . DISCRETION AND GOOD JUDGMENT AND I THINK IT IMPORTANT THAT SOMEONE ON SPOT IN HANOI SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACT FOR ME IN CASE OF URGENT NEED OR MY INABILITY TO GET TO HANOI FOR ANY REASON SEABORN 000199 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Indochina (CDVN) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CDVN00032 Title A name given to the resource Appendix 13 - Saigon telegrams 419 and 426, Seaborn reports Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource multiple dates Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived RG25/R219, 2017-00506-1, Box 3, Pt. 11, "A study of Canadian Policy with respect to the Vietnam Problem," Library and Archives Canada. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource LAC ATIP EA_2023_020897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Canadian Crown Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Canada Declassified Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource en