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4CTINGUNDER-SECRETARY
Subject,
Interviews
by
'United States
tgencies of
.csnndianc1t1gensin ca.rtadit
.
.
A• you know, on December l in the nouse Mr.
Knowles asked a aueat1on of Mr.· Pearson regarding interviews by United states agencies of Canadian citizenc
in csnada. The qUestion, and Mr. Pearson's in.terim
answer, were all follows;
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-~EXTERNAL
AFFAIRS
CANADIAN CITIZENS INTERVIEWED
BY UNITED_
j STATES FEDERAL B~REAU OF INVESTIGATION
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, On the orders of the day:
· Mr. Stanley
Knowles
(Winnipeg
North i
Centre): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct :
a question to the Secretary of State for E~'ternal Affairs. Have there been any instances,
'. other than in the case of Igor Gquzenko of l·
the F.B.I. or any other United States agency,
· interviewing
Canadian
citiz.ens in Canada I
; with respect to loyalty investigations
in the f
United States?
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of Staie for
External Affairs): I do, not know of any
'i\hstances similar to the one which the honf: 1
entleman has in mind, .but I shall look int ; :
.-( e matter, and if there is anything to repor: 1
I shall make a report at a later date.
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2.
Mr. Pearson asked me 'to look into
draf't n reply.
thin
and
3.
In the meantime Mr. Knowles told U# privately
that hilt was eoncttrned particula.rly
about a cane where
the F.B.I. had interviewed a man named Ulen 1n TorodD.
Mr. Knowles felt that this was at least a potential
breach of civil liberties
and of Canadian sovereignty,
and said with evident npproval tha.t Ulen had coEllllentod
to the F.B.I. agents, "So you have taken over Canada
a.t lasttt, and had refused to give them any information.
In the course of preparation of a reply,
the Minister, Mr. Crean and.I each d!scusned tho
question with Mr. Knowles on ~arious occasions. We.
also discusnod the matter with Commissioner Nicholson
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and Superintendent
Lemieux ot the R.c.M.P.
~.
Commissioner Nicholson prepared a draft
roplJ which he anticipated would be given out by Mr.
Oorson rather than by Mr. Pearson. However, Mr.
·
Garson preferred that Mr. Pearson should. reply, since
the question was.directed to him. Mr. Knowles also
regarded the matter ee essentially
one c,f_CanadianUnited States r.elatione 1 and therefor~ of. foreign
policy rather than r;;erezy administrative
police
measures.
6.
that it was
rep~ in
certain particulars
and l diseusaod possible red.rafts
with Colll!ll11Ht1oner?tieholeon.
Com!!!1Rs1oner Nicholson
told me that it could net be .said that in, .f!1J.casos
where en F.B.l. agent interviewed a canadlan 1n Canada
e ropresentetive
of tho n.c.M.P.was present. 'l'he
most he could say was that this was nomanll,xthe case.
de,d:rabl.e
'i'ho Minister
to shorten
a~ Mr.Garson
an<! tighten
telt
the draft
?.
In the ~articular
case to which :itnowles
had r~ferredt the R.C.M.P. told us that in 1950 in
Toronto, t-wo F.n.r. agents had visited tllen in his
flat by spacial al'rengement with the R.C.M.P., and
acoompan1et1 by an R.C.M.P. Inspector.
The F.B.I.
wished to interview Allen .regarding the possibility
o.r
laying a perjury charge against Remington (a former
senior official
of the United States Co!1119rceDepartment,
alleged to have been a Soviet agentt the case was
in several respects annlegous to th11t of !llger Hiss).
We were given to understand that the perjury charge
related to something Remington had said 1n a Congressional
loyalty .investigation,
but the R.C.M.P. later suggested
that the charge might relate to a stotement Remington .
had made in a loyalty investigation
conducted by the
Executive.
apparently the F.B.I. hoped that Ulen
could testify that he had seen Re1111ngton
on a certain
date in Mexico, whereas Remington had denied on oath
that he had been 1n Mexico at that time.
8.
. In general, the rt.C.M.P. told us that F.B.I.
1ntarrogat1ons ot Canadians in Canada, always arranged
vith R.C.M.P. approval, avqraged about 12 to 15 a year •
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- 3·Moet ot these were purely criminal,
and th• Ulen case
might well be tho only one relating
to a loyalty
investigation,
though they could not be sure ot this
since thoil' records 0£ these matters ware not filed·
according to the nature 0£ the charge Which the F.B.I.
contemplated lay1~.
The ~rrangemonts are or .eourae
tully reciprocal between the F.a.1. and the n.c.M.P.,
and Nicholson said they are of particular value to the
R.C.M.P.
XXX
9.
Mr. Knovles ir ..sil'Jted on a reply
10.
'lhe R.C.M.P. •md.erstandably deprecated
to his
quention, although he agreed to wait until we were
·prepared to give it.
public
l'4!1lat1onsvitb the
and p11rt1cularly hoped that there would be no
d1scuso1on or their
F.B.I.,
confide-nt1al
discussion
or 1no.1vidu111cases• since th1s would be
a bad preced.ent and might well. J.ead to less i.'ltimate
and frank relations
betvoen the tvo police forces •
.X XX
ll.
When the Minister lett
tor the North 4tlant1c
Council meeting 1n Paris on December 8, he had not had
tho opportunity to mako a further statcmez,t in l:he
House and asked me to discuas the question with Mr.
Garson Whot:dght wish to anrrwer since the a.c.M.P.
is responsible to him.
Mr. Onrson asked :meto explain the s1tu.at1on
12.
. 1n .:tonfidence to Mr. Knowlos, end. to aee whether he
.would not bo satisfied without a pub11o reply or, it
there vero a reply,
in genorul torus,
Ulen
case.
then one very brief
and morely
w1thot1t any referonce at all to the
· ·
Mr. Knowles said that he thought th&re was
an 1roJ)Ortant issue or p1.'inCiple involved. He had discussed the matter with Mr, Coldwell, who was also of
thin vtev. In the circumstances he felt he must ask
tor a reply 1n the House, but would accept a very
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brief one. It, however,,here were no-reference to
the .Ulen case, then Mr. Knowles said that he might
have to ask a supplementary about it:
but 1f there
were an. allusion to this caae 1n general terms and
without ident1f'1cat1on to make it clear that 1n his
question he was not merely "fishing", then Mr. Knowles
said that be would be satisfied,
and he prol'llised that
he would not follow the matter up.in any way. I
understood him to promise that there would be no
supplementaries.
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I reported all this to Ml". Garson, who
decided to make .a short statement in the House, nnd
asked me to draft it.
I did therefore, draft a
statement, but since the ma.t!er, though one involving
external affairs• ossentiall7_concernod n.c.M.P.
activities,
I had tho dratt statement sent to Collllllissionor
Nicholson, with the request that ho should forward
it, it he approved, and with any changes ho felt
desirable, to Mr. Garson. Nicholson approved the
draft, with the addition of a nGWsentence to paragraph 4 ('Which was a clear 1mprov,ment) •
15.
On Dec:ember 16 Mr. Garson ga~e this statement 1n the House. 'l'here wore then supplementary
questions trom Mr. Knowles md Mr. Coldwell. The
· statement and subsequent exchange was as follows•
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pilin.'41fe results.
.
.
Mr. '.!-{a}i.·.tny: I should like to
te from
what the pa iamentary assistan said. Mr. Speaker.
Order.
Wo
losing time? If
e quotati
is not exact it
has been modified,
d th one that has been
made today must be ac pted.
[Later:]
Mr. Z_apli.tny: 0
a que ion of privilege,
the Parbamentar
Assistan,t fu,tl_le Minister of
Ag~iculture~a
contradicted "the statement
which I mad in the course ,of ~king him a
question.
ay I refer him to p\~e 644 of
Hansard 9{ December 7, the last lih-e of his
reply, wnich is as follows:
'\.
A sUr(ey is being made by officials of our d~artment ...~nd the report of that survey will be har'uted
of review
of the P.F,A.A.
on Saturday
next when a decision
to the matter.
to the board
will be reached
with regard
I submit
correct.,
:that
,.
my
EXTERNAL
statement
wa.s quite
AFFAIRS
CANADIAN CITIZENS INTERVIEWED
BY UNITED
STATES FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
On the orders of th~ day:
Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):
On December I, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) dir€:cted a
question to the Secretary of State for External
Affairs (Mr. Pearson).
The question asked
whether there ·had been any instances 1 other
than in the case of Igor Gouzenko, of the
~.B.I.. or. any other United States agency
mterv1ewmg
.Canadian -citizens in Canada
with respect to loyalty investigations
in the
United States.
My colleague, the Secretary of States for
External Affairs, replied at once that he did
not_ know of any instances siffiilar to the one
which the hon. gentleman has in mind but
he promised that the matter would be 1doked
into and that if there were anything to r-eport
the report would be made at a later date.
He then discussed this matter with me as the
minister in charge of the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police and requested me to reply
to the -'question of the hon. member for
Winnipeg North Centre in due course. I have
accordingly had the_ matter carefully examined and would reply as follows: If the hon.
member for Winnipeg North Centre is referring to formal inquiries by congressional committee_s or agents r~presenting
congressional
. committees, I can assure him that we have
_) Iio knowledge of any such occurrences, other
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one which I had in mind \:hen
I asked 'my
question on Decembe-r 1. I agree with him
that we should not discuss these names in
public. Obviously that would 'be following
I the very practice to which I take objection.
i My question is this. May we take it that the
Canadian governm,ent would not look with
, approval on the F.B.I. coming into Canada
to question Canadian citizens on behalf of
congressional inquiries, apart from such cases
as that of Igor Gouzenko, where special arrangements have been made?
Mr. Stick: Why not?
Mr. Garson: I think that I would not wish
to add anyth_ing to the statement which I have
just read because it covers the very point to
which my hon. friend is Uow referring, and
covers it very clearly. The statement was
drafted with the intent that it would be
1
fully complete, and if my hon. friend will
"examine it he will find that it is complete.
If he wishes to ask any further
questions
after reading the statement_ he might address
them to me tomorrow.
Some hon. Members: Tomorrow?
Mr. Coldwell:
The minister
spoke of
criminal charges. Did those criminal charges
arise out of the congressional
investigation
into this man's activities?
In other_ words,
was this one of those perjury cases or ..not?
Mr. Garson: I do ' not think I can pretend
to give an accurate answer to that without
checking back and getting the information
'from the police officials. My hon. friend will .
appreciate
that everything
I say here is
hearsay. I have to get information from them
; before I can give it here.
Mr. Coldwell: Will the hon. gentleman get
• that information?
Mr. Garson: Yes; I have no objection.
'Mr. Coldwell:
It bears on the question
~,,,.W/IT__llsked_.
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.rt~rson''1 told
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16.
That afternoon
ma that be.had
been aurprised by the supplementaries rrom Knowles ·
and Coldwell, in view ot Knowles' undertaking to me.
However, in order to set tho press straight,
he
wondered whether it would be oppropr1ate.for
him to
mako a .stateim,nt when the House resWDed at 8 o•elock
that evening (this was the last day before the
Christmas recess) in reply to Mr. Knowles• supple•
mentaey question.
Mr. G1n•sonwondered whether it
.would.be appropriate to say that the Canadian Govern•·
mont would not look with approval on the F.B.I. coming
into Cane4a to question Canadian citizens on. behalf of
Congressional enqu1r.1os, apart from m.i.cheasel'! as that
of OQuzenkowhore. spociat arrangements had. boen made.
••
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X strongly advised Mr. Garson not to g1vo
any categoric answer, one way or the other.
I suggested
that if the Government announced that it would.not
look with approval on the F.B.I. coming into Canada in
the circUtnatences Knowles envisaged, this would appear
to preclude what, from our ;point of view, 1«0uld have
been a ~eh more normal procedure tor tho United Staten
to have tollowed when Senator Jenner requested an
interview with Gouzerui:o. We would have preferred to
be asked tor permission to have the F.B.I. interview
OQuzenko, rather than that members ot the Congressional
Committee itself should be allowed to come to Canada
to do so. On the other hand, a OQvornment statement
answering Knowles• question the other way would imply
a blanket approval in advance. Either course would
.almost certainly attract a lot of comment 1n the United
States as well as the Canedian press. Th• wiser course
would probably be to consider each ca.se on its own
merits and not to commit ourselves in advance one way
or the other.
I urged that it,en answor must be givon
1n the House1 it should. be done only after there was
time for full. considera.tion by. the R.C.M.P. and our- . ,
selv,n, •.
lB.
Mr. Garson agreed not to give any answer to
Knowles:that evening. He undertook to discuss the
matter privately with Knowles and Coldwell.
1.9.
Tho next 1?10rningKnowles phoned me. Ho soid
he owed 1110 en apology for what, he suggested., might
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well appear to be a breach of his understanding vith
me regarding supplementaries.
He had intended his
commitment to mean that there would be no "embarrass1ng
supplementaries 1n general, and no follow.up on the
Allen case in particular.
He said that on this latter
·point he had hicselt been surprised when Coldwell
asked a supplementary about the (llen case. Mr.
Knowles also said that he had not realized that his
own supplementary qUest:l.on to Mr. Garson could be
embarrassing to EXternal A.t'ta1rs, but he now tully
appreciated that it could well be. He had.t~eretore
told Mr. Garson that be would. not expect any rurther
reply.
Mr. Coldwell hod alao, Mr. Knowles o.dded, told
Mr. Garson that no replf 1n th~ Bouse would be needed.
11
Arnold Smith
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Espionage
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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US Investigation of Canadians / 23 DECEMBER 1953
Date
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1953-12-23
Format
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PDF
Language
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en
Type
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Text
Identifier
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CDTT00126
Source
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Smith memorandum, ‘‘Interviews by United States Agencies of Canadian Citizens in Canada,’’ 23 Dec. 1953, LAC, RG 25, vol. 8561, file no. 50303-40, part 1.1.